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Total War Heaven » Forums » Dark Ages: Roman Revival » The Caliphate
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Topic Subject:The Caliphate
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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 29 September 2011 20:42 EDT (US)         
The Rashidun Caliphate was formed in 632 upon the death of the Prophet Mohammed, and was replaced by the dynastic Umayyad Caliphate in 661. The lightly armed Arab armies took the exhausted Byzantine and Sassanid Persian Empires by surprise, conquering Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Africa from the Byzantines in little time, and ending the Sassanid Empire entirely.

The Caliphate proved excellent at fusing the cultural elements of the conquered peoples with her native Arab elements, if not so good at maintaining political stability. The Umayyad family were ousted in 751, and from there, the Islam world became increasingly fragmented, with multiple Caliphates being declared at once....


The exact mechanics of the Caliphate in DA:RR have yet to be finalised, so this serves as good a place as any to discuss them, in addition to the roster and like. The general consensus has been that they are to emerge at some point in Arabia, and very quickly dominate the region if not stopped quickly - much like the Mongols and Timurids of Medieval II.

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AuthorReplies:
Rinster
Legionary
posted 30 September 2011 08:31 EDT (US)     1 / 76       
It seems that the Caliphate armies relied heavily on their infantries, making repeated charges against enemy lines aided by arrow volleys, and their light cavalry was used to encircle the enemy or break them with a charge after their morale was worn down

wikipedia link here:
Caliphate Army

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
RTW
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Je parle un peu de français
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 30 September 2011 15:40 EDT (US)     2 / 76       
Temporarily closed.

This will reopen later.

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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 05:14 EDT (US)     3 / 76       
Huzzah, we're back!

I personally think the first issue we need to deal with for the Caliphate is how and when they will emerge. They aren't meant to arrive until 632 - 264 turns into the game, long after most games have been abandoned.

So obviously they'll be arriving somewhat early. But how? Do they start at the beginning? Do they arrive like the Slavs - a weak army (which we can't directly control the composition of) arriving at a set date? Do they arrive like the Romano-British, when a certain faction no longer occupies Arabia? (Again with an army which we can't control) Do they spawn_on_revolt like the Ostrogoths?

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Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 07:52 EDT (US)     4 / 76       
I think that they should spawn like the Slavs, as neither Rome or Persia ever controlled Arabia.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 04 October 2011 10:12 EDT (US)     5 / 76       
Maybe we can use the ERE growth to spawn these ultimate conquerors of the ERE?

Like if ERE gains 15 provinces=spawn Caliphate.

Something like that.

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Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 15:49 EDT (US)     6 / 76       
Maybe in like 530 A.D.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 15:59 EDT (US)     7 / 76       
Various Arab tribes were vassals of the ERE and Sassanids to the best of my knowledge, so really it could work well.

The issue with setting some other requirement is how to make it work. If there is a way to do it via scripting, it is quite awkward and not nearly as streamlined as stuff within the game.

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Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 06 October 2011 17:38 EDT (US)     8 / 76       
Ah! I just thought of an idea. When the Arabs invaded, both Persia and Byzantines had been exhausted of troops by a previous war, which was one of the reasons they fell so easily. Maybe we should start with the ERE and the Sassanids at war, and have the Caliphate emerge when they make a ceasefire? Is that possible?

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 October 2011 00:03 EDT (US)     9 / 76       
Starting the two regional superpowers at war makes sense... although I'm not so keen on the Caliphate emerging when they reach a ceasefire agreement.

Not to mention that I have no idea if it is possible or not - and if it is, it'll mean scripting, and that means clicking on a Show Me How advisor which will pop up when said ceasefire is called.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 14 October 2011 06:15 EDT (US)     10 / 76       
Just let them emerge on a set date, much easier.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
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Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 14 October 2011 16:20 EDT (US)     11 / 76       
I agree with Kickass. Maybe 540 A.D.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Rinster
Legionary
posted 14 October 2011 18:00 EDT (US)     12 / 76       
well historically, the Caliphate only emerged from the Arabian peninsula around 632 or later.

I don't know what time and length the mod is exactly, so maybe it should change, but that's history, according to wikipedia at least

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
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Je parle un peu de français
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 15 October 2011 12:36 EDT (US)     13 / 76       
Maybe 540, maybe 640. The exact date is open to change taking into consideration the results of play-testing and etc, which means we shouldn't get too tied-up in it right now.

What were the Arab armies like? Did they employ massed infantry lines to pin down enemy armies whilst sending fleet horsemen round the flanks to hammer-and-anvil? A few basic units should be enough for their armies since we want to make sure they come in strong with surprise but meet stiffer and stiffer resistance afterwards.

Eastern Infantry
Muslim Spearmen
Mubarizun Swordsmen (Yemeni blades)

Desert Skirmishers
Desert Archers/ Arab Bowmen

Bedouin Raiders (camel HAs)
Rashidun Lancers (light)
Arab Horsemen (scimitars!)

Siege and Naval units would just be the usual, no?
During the Islamic conquest of Sassanid Persia (633-656), some 12,000 elite Persian troops converted to Islam and served later on during the wholescale invasion of the empire.
Daylami AoR? Or some recruitment building perhaps? Or not.

Comments?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 21 October 2011 15:57 EDT (US)     14 / 76       
Make sure to give them good morale. That was one of the key elements of their conquest, to spread Islam.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 22 October 2011 07:01 EDT (US)     15 / 76       
Good morale, and begin at Tier 3 with only to Tier 4 possible upgrade militarily, but culturally can go to the top.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 23 October 2011 04:36 EDT (US)     16 / 76       
I think we can just give them most of the same buildings the Sassanids have, save for the religious ones of course.

Infantry
Tier 3 - Eastern Infantry
Tier 3 - Muslim Spearmen
Tier 4 - Mubarizun Swordsmen (Yemeni blades)

Missile
Tier 3 - Desert Skirmishers
Tier 4 - Desert Archers/ Arab Bowmen

Cavalry
Tier 3 - Bedouin Raiders (camel HAs)
Tier 4 - Rashidun Lancers (light)
Tier 4 - Arab Horsemen (scimitars!)

Navy
Tier 3 - Boats

Siege
Tier 4 - Onagers

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 25 October 2011 03:47 EDT (US)     17 / 76       
This looks like it fits the bill.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 26 October 2011 21:55 EDT (US)     18 / 76       
It should do for the moment, yes?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 27 October 2011 12:42 EDT (US)     19 / 76       
Faction symbol?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 27 October 2011 22:01 EDT (US)     20 / 76       
Crescent moon and star?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 28 October 2011 12:28 EDT (US)     21 / 76       
Sounds good.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 28 October 2011 22:22 EDT (US)     22 / 76       
Pretty much like the Turk flag in Med2, no?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 29 October 2011 01:48 EDT (US)     23 / 76       
I guess, but just to throw in a piece of advice that would have been more useful far earlier, didn't Caliphate infantrymen usually use swords?

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 29 October 2011 02:55 EDT (US)     24 / 76       
We can change the Muslim Spearmen into Muslim Warriors and have them wield swords. Piece of cake.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 November 2011 04:57 EDT (US)     25 / 76       
Works for me. Just remember to make the swords with the eastern curve, eh?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 09 November 2011 21:11 EDT (US)     26 / 76       
Agreed.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 13 November 2011 00:31 EDT (US)     27 / 76       
Surely they deserve some other form of spearmen too, above the shoddy Eastern Infantry?

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 13 November 2011 05:40 EDT (US)     28 / 76       
Why?

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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 13 November 2011 14:36 EDT (US)     29 / 76       
Well if for no other reason, because this supposed scourge of the ERE and Sassanids isn't going to get far using swordsmen against Clibinarii.

Most depictions of the armies of the Caliphate and its successors seem to have *slightly* better spearmen than what we're giving them too. They don't need to be super-elite, just... units which actually last more than thirty seconds in a battle.

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Rinster
Legionary
posted 13 November 2011 18:48 EDT (US)     30 / 76       
it seems like we need some sure-fire or almost sure way that the caliphate will do that, sweep away the ERE and sassanid armies, because as it is, they don't seem powerful enough
maybe a bonus of some kind?

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
RTW
---|---|---|---
Je parle un peu de français
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 14 November 2011 01:43 EDT (US)     31 / 76       
How did they beat them in history? Was it the love of Allah that gave them a +5 versus Infidels, or was it they simply had better generals?

It could also be that they came in a conquered a great swath of Persia while the Sassanids were more worried about Rome- not like the Sassanids were in any great shape at the time anyway. After Persia and her lovely infantry fell, then the Caliphate gots its better infantry, no? Like Aor Persia?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 16 November 2011 07:41 EDT (US)     32 / 76       
The Soghdian Warriors from vanilla were limited to Persian regions, so I would say something similar would do, for both the Sassanids and the Caliphate.
it seems like we need some sure-fire or almost sure way that the caliphate will do that, sweep away the ERE and sassanid armies, because as it is, they don't seem powerful enough
Now why would we want to do that? The Caliphate should be coming in really strong from Persia's backside. In history they did steam-roll the Sassanids before they could say "Catas", but in RTW if we make them strong enough to do that right off the bat they tend to steam-roll all the way and take the fun away for everybody...

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Rinster
Legionary
posted 16 November 2011 20:52 EDT (US)     33 / 76       
Yeah, but we don't want them stuck in the corner of the map either, we have to find a balance.
maybe when they conquer certain territories they get somewhat weaker units, or something like that?

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
RTW
---|---|---|---
Je parle un peu de français
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 17 November 2011 02:53 EDT (US)     34 / 76       
Maybe we can have the southern province(s) of Persia 'defect' to the Caliphate upon emergence?

That gives them a base, and weakens Persia, as historically happened.

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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 17 November 2011 04:49 EDT (US)     35 / 76       
Not sure that that is possible. And if it is, that'll require the player clicking on 'show me how' when the advisor pops up.

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 17 November 2011 06:47 EDT (US)     36 / 76       
We can also start Persia off 'at war' with ERE and the starting positions of most of their armies would be away from where the Caliphate emerges- that way the AI is primed to go on the offensive against ERE and start with its ass uncovered for a Caliphate buggering.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 17 November 2011 08:54 EDT (US)     37 / 76       
Well-put. Quite well-put indeed.

I'm happy enough with Terikel's idea, and would like to add that since we're probably going to make Constantinople one of the Sassanids' victory conditions, this ERE VS Sassanids tug of war is more than guaranteed. I'm personally more concerned with balancing the two old enemies than boosting the new player too much.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 17 November 2011 14:07 EDT (US)     38 / 76       
Revolutionary idea: We put the Caliphate in under the label Arabs, and give them Islam as one possible religion. That way, they can start on the map and don't mess up balancing, we can actually give them a chance on the map by directly making changes, not indirectly changing their spawn stacks, and the game is far more historically accurate.

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 18 November 2011 01:51 EDT (US)     39 / 76       
We could try that, but I do not like it. They would have to start off with lots of good troops, which is historically inaccurate, or the AI will crush them pretty early on, which is also historically inaccurate.

'The Moslems swept out of the desert with scimitars and Faith,' to quote a book I once read. Mohammed really did wield these unruly, internecine-but-disparate tribes into a powerhouse that swept across the MidEast, through Spain into France on the once side, and up to the gates of Constantinople on the other within our time frame.

Starting them on the map with a lot of forces and only a city or two would destroy their economy (red numbers, no retraining, no building), while not doing so pretty much ensure they were wiped out before being able to become a threat.

The ERE is very strong gamewise- they control a lot of territory, and rich ones. We tried to weaken them by creating the Copts, taking the rich Nile Delta from the ERE. The only way I see right now to put Arabs in and keep them around is to start them off with the Nile. In this way, they have a strong starting position none can assail, and are rich enough to support the avalanche of Faithful they are going to send out. So in essence, we are renaming the Copts to Arabs, and re-creating an overpowered Egypt. Sounds very RTW-ishly familiar. Been there, done that.

I would rather we put them in like a horde and let them 'sweep out of the Desert with scimitars and Faith'. You know, like they actually did...

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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 11-18-2011 @ 02:03 PM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 18 November 2011 07:42 EDT (US)     40 / 76       
If we want to give them a sufficiently potent horde, we pretty much have to make them a faction on the map at the start of the game.

While I love the idea of having the Muslim conquests as part of a mod, I'm wondering if this is the one. That said, this is motivation to work on the one I was toying with which is based on exactly that; the Islamic conquests.

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Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 20 November 2011 00:03 EDT (US)     41 / 76       
Make it so that there is no incentive for the Sassanids and the ERE to look to Arabia, so all there forces are really focused on taking eachother's territories, then have the Arabs as an emergent horde, so they burst onto the soft underbelly of the Sassanids without warning.

Sorry if I'm dropping in without any warning whatsoever, but I just felt that my opinion may be appreciated. If not, just ignore me.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 20 November 2011 03:47 EDT (US)     42 / 76       
Feel free to swing in. In fact, swing in more. Become a regular. Please.

However, while this
Make it so that there is no incentive for the Sassanids and the ERE to look to Arabia,
is a nice idea, I'm not sure I can think of a way to actually do that. If you have any ideas...!

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE

[This message has been edited by Draak (edited 11-20-2011 @ 03:49 AM).]

Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 20 November 2011 17:49 EDT (US)     43 / 76       
Make it a really big desert. I don't know. I have no idea what the map looks like and no clue how big it is. I would make it so that all the resources are so far away that there isn't any reason to go on the offensive there. Try and funnel the Sassanids and ERE so that they don't have anything ready for the Arabs. Then the Arabs emerge as a large horde with every thing that they need to conquer the Sassanids and give the ERE hell.

Also, why would they need to start at the beginning to have a large horde?

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel

[This message has been edited by Agrippa 271 (edited 11-20-2011 @ 05:49 PM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 21 November 2011 06:44 EDT (US)     44 / 76       
The emergent Slavs from vanilla don't start as a regular faction, yet they always have at least 4 or more full stacks to bring to the field.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 22 November 2011 02:35 EDT (US)     45 / 76       
They also (in my experience) don't tend to cause any real damage before being chased back to whence they came!

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 22 November 2011 08:19 EDT (US)     46 / 76       
I see your point now. I thought you meant they had to come with a starting position for a large horde to be built, which doesn't make that much sense unless they start with a highly populated settlement, in which case they'll be able to spawn quite a few stacks easily when they horde.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 22 November 2011 17:46 EDT (US)     47 / 76       
Would it be possible to maybe alter their personality to make the horde want to settle cities. Or maybe we can remove the sack feature from the game, as by this point in time there aren't that many factions still left that are just looking to pillage (that's pretty much been done). Or maybe we can start with separate Islam hordes (i.e. some in Egypt-ish area, some in Persia, some in Syria). Or maybe all 3. Whatever works!

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 22 November 2011 21:53 EDT (US)     48 / 76       
Could we have some sort of mechanism that makes Islam spread really quickly for a couple hundred years, then cause some provinces with a close enough proximity to the Arabs rebel to them?

Also, maybe we could make a trait that is Sassanids-only, that says something like--

"Fear of Arabs

Level 1 -1 Command and Morale vs the Caliphate
Level 2 -2 Command and Morale vs the Caliphate
Level 3 -3 Command and Morale vs the Caliphate"

Obviously, there could be another fear of Arabs trait that only subtracts command, for the other factions. At the same time, we should make a less common Hates Arabs trait for the Sassanids so that they at least stand a chance.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel

[This message has been edited by Agrippa 271 (edited 11-22-2011 @ 10:11 PM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 23 November 2011 04:15 EDT (US)     49 / 76       
Could we have some sort of mechanism that makes Islam spread really quickly for a couple hundred years, then cause some provinces with a close enough proximity to the Arabs rebel to them?
Well, we could give the Caliphate large armies of non-trainable no-upkeep troops and good generals, if they start on the map. Hopefully they'll then conquer quickly but stagnate when their good generals and upkeep-free troops die. But in terms of gameplay mechanisms, no, not really.

Fears Arabs/Hates Arabs sounds like something every faction should get though.

I don't think we can remove the sack feature, somehow. Nor really change the 'personality' of the hordes.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 23 November 2011 12:06 EDT (US)     50 / 76       
I was saying that the Sassanids would get their own trait that puts them at the historically accurate disadvantage they were at against the Caliphate, because of their surprise at their sudden appearance. Then we counteract that with a special hates Arab trait that does the opposite of the fears Arabs trait, but still Sassanids-only. The other factions would get the typical trait that takes away or gives Command Stars. So, the Sassanids will be at a disadvantage, but have a fighting chance. And since this is alternative history, they don't have to fall.

Too bad. The rebellious religious converts idea was a pretty good one. I suppose that would work, but we would have to make the cities the Caliphate captures have a bunch of their buildings destroyed, or else they will just build up other, possibly less formidable, but still effective line-troops. And it would be unfair to give them really good troops in the beginning with no way to get them again later, so we should make them upper tier. But that also means that as soon as they get a city of large size, with higher tier buildings, they will retrain them.

Now, what about the Caliphates siege engines? Are they going to get onagers and stuff for attacking cities? Or should we force them to start with none and build them later, making it more difficult to attack the bigger cities?

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
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