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Total War Heaven » Forums » Rome: Total War Discussion » Thermopylae Map?
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Topic Subject:Thermopylae Map?
Shadow_Ghoul
Legionary
posted 25 October 2005 14:14 EDT (US)         
Hi,
For a presentation for an open day at my school I am hoping to get a map for Rome Total War that allows you to fight as the Spartans at the pass of Thermopylae against the Persians. Unfortunatley I have not been able to find a map on the internet which is historically correct or fun to play. Please could anyone tell me where to find a good one, or send me one you have or will have created?
AuthorReplies:
Thunderbolt2000
Legionary
posted 25 October 2005 17:23 EDT (US)     1 / 12       
A Thermopylae map would suck, there's no way to beat it if you're not Sparta. IRL, 300 Spartans fought 2 MILLION persians and cut down near half their army because Thermopylae is a mountain pass. Mountains to the left and right, only one way through... A wall of Spartan spears...
inkdrinker
Legionary
posted 25 October 2005 17:49 EDT (US)     2 / 12       
280,000 Persians is the more accepted estimate. The Persians said in the millions, but they were probably exaggerating.

Also, the Spartan success, as it were, wasn't about cutting half the army down. It was probably closer to a few thousand. When your army's that big, a few thousand at the hands of 300 is much more a blow to your pride than to your military might.

What made Thermopylae significant was that they held off the Persian army for three days, which gave Athens enough time to evacuate to Salamis. The Spartans' sacrifice also inspired the Greeks to fight when a lot of them had been ready to accept defeat.

It could be even easier to defeat as Persians anyway, because you go in knowing about the mountain pass without needing the help of a traitor.

[This message has been edited by inkdrinker (edited 10-25-2005 @ 05:50 PM).]

Ace Cataphract
HG Alumnus
(id: Ace_Cataphract)
posted 25 October 2005 18:54 EDT (US)     3 / 12       
It wasn't only 300 Spartans though. There were a few thousand other Greek soldiers from various other city-states.

In the last day of the battle, the 300 Spartans with several hundred more men of a neighboring city-state friendly to Sparta stood behind and fought for the entire day. At the end, the Xerxes grew tired of the fighting and ordered archers to come forward and shoot them all down.


I put a dollar in one of those change machines. Nothing changed. ~George Carlin
inkdrinker
Legionary
posted 25 October 2005 20:34 EDT (US)     4 / 12       
Most of the extras fled once the Persians made it around the pass. If I remember right, the Thespians were the only ones who stayed to the very end of it with the Spartans. Considering they were all volunteer soldiers where the Spartans were there by orders, it impressed the Spartans a lot and the two declared themselves allies forever.

[This message has been edited by inkdrinker (edited 10-25-2005 @ 08:38 PM).]

Shadow_Ghoul
Legionary
posted 26 October 2005 05:54 EDT (US)     5 / 12       
Would it be possible for a video showing the battle, so i would be able to talk people thorugh what happened there e.g. I could explain the Spartan formation and why they couldnt be defeated from the front/
Primus Pilus
Legionary
posted 26 October 2005 06:39 EDT (US)     6 / 12       
Leonidas performance as overall Greek commander at Thermopylai has been strongly criticized in recent years. For one, he did not pay enough attention to guarding the other ways across the mountains. The "fleeing" of the other greek contingents is now widely interpreted as a belated retreat in which Leonidas Spartans as the rearguard were pulled out too late and got trapped, while the traitor may be an invention to cover up Leonidas blunders. However, his performance certainly was a shining example in comparison to that of the Persians.

The usual numbers given for the Greek defenders are sketchy at best, too. Example: Every Spartan Hoplite was usually accompanied into battle by four to five Helots. Given the number of 300 Spartans would either mean that their actual number was around 1500 or that Sparta would have sent a contigent of 60 Hoplites only, which seems very few to accompany one of their kings.

Certainly the battle was turned into a propagandistic showcase to fire the Greek will of resistance. However, contrary to popular belief, at least up to this point there was no codex in Spartan history which forbade capitulation under such extreme circumstances.

Still, a battle map would be very boring indeed, as the pass was reported to be a mere 15 metres across at the narrowest part. That battle would not be much fun.


"I see no difference between war and terrorism. Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich."

Sir Peter Ustinov

NAFPAKTIUS II
Legionary
posted 26 October 2005 16:10 EDT (US)     7 / 12       
Hey Shadow,

Lucky you I am a Thermopylae nut and have always been fascinated with the story. This is a link to what I think is the most accurate custom map from what I've seen and read. Download play and post your comments: http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=673

By the way I am not the creator but I find this to be a very accurate map. The only problem is that the armies can march on side of the mountains etc but still a great map.

Cheers!

Shadow_Ghoul
Legionary
posted 26 October 2005 16:34 EDT (US)     8 / 12       
How can i play this map alongside the historical battles mod, because it doesnt work with the mod instaled

Help again! After uninstalling the mod COMPLETELY it still doesnt work! Help!

[This message has been edited by Shadow_Ghoul (edited 10-26-2005 @ 05:28 PM).]

NAFPAKTIUS II
Legionary
posted 27 October 2005 10:53 EDT (US)     9 / 12       
It works with RTW 1.2 vanilla or Darth Mod. It has not been tested against other mods. Sorry.
lmao
Legionary
posted 27 October 2005 15:44 EDT (US)     10 / 12       

Quote:

It wasn't only 300 Spartans though. There were a few thousand other Greek soldiers from various other city-states.
In the last day of the battle, the 300 Spartans with several hundred more men of a neighboring city-state friendly to Sparta stood behind and fought for the entire day. At the end, the Xerxes grew tired of the fighting and ordered archers to come forward and shoot them all down.


300 Spartans and 700 Thespians. Herodotus records the Persians casualties from the start of the fighting (when all the Greeks were there) until the 300 were killed as 20000. Xerxes didn't grow tired, his men refused to keep fighting the Spartans hand to hand.


Imagination is more important than knowledge - Einstein
Porphyrogenitus
Legionary
posted 27 October 2005 17:12 EDT (US)     11 / 12       
Thermopylae was important at the time only in that delayed the Persians by a few days and showed how unreliable the Spartans were at sending reinforcements, even for their own army. Only afterward did it come to have greater meaning, especially with the idea that Spartans were unbeatable.

There were several thousand Greeks of various kinds at Thermopylae. The core was the 300 Spartans, but there were a thousand or so Helots and perioecoi with them (the Helots were light infantry, the perioecoi were hoplites). Also, there were thousands of other Greek troops, most notably a detachment that Leonidas set to guard the shepherds trail that the Persians used to outflank the pass. These guards were unprepared when the Persians showed up and simply ran away.

If you take the numbers in Herodotus for the size of the Persian army, and divide by 10, you should get a reasonable estimate of the real numbers (roughly 180,000 I think). There's a theory that fits with most methods for determining the real number of Persians that says that the Greek historians misinterpreted the Persian ranking system, thinking that each Persian officer commanded 10 times the men that he really did. This led to adding an extra 0 to the army size estimates.

lmao
Legionary
posted 28 October 2005 09:57 EDT (US)     12 / 12       
Herodotus says that they would count 10000 men, put a fencing around them, lead them out, and cram as many men back in, then take them out until all the army had passed through, that was their system of counting he says. Definetly not accurate, and his source could easily have made the mistake of saying 10000 would fit the pen instead of 1000.

Quote:

Also, there were thousands of other Greek troops, most notably a detachment that Leonidas set to guard the shepherds trail that the Persians used to outflank the pass. These guards were unprepared when the Persians showed up and simply ran away.


1000 Phocians is recorded by Herodotus. They put up a fight when they were surprised by the Persians and would have kept fighting, but they were in a forest, so couldn't form a pahalanx, and the Persians were bringing up their archers, so they retreated to a nearby hill, expecting to die fighting, when the Persians simply passed them by.


Imagination is more important than knowledge - Einstein

[This message has been edited by lmao (edited 10-28-2005 @ 09:58 AM).]

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