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Total War Heaven » Forums » Rome: Total War Discussion » The Trouble with Seleucia (RTR)
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Topic Subject:The Trouble with Seleucia (RTR)
Andariel
Banned
posted 18 May 2006 18:41 EDT (US)         
I think its a generally accepted fact that the Seleucid Empire is way way way WAY too strong in Rome Total Realism, with a huge amount of land it controls (which is supposedly realistic compared to RTW), a healthy and hearty supply of the most flexible AND most powerful units in the game (ranging from HEAVILY ARMORED ELEPHANTS to HEAVILY ARMORED CHARIOTS to HEAVILY ARMORED BRONZE SHIELDS, GOLD SHIELDS, SILVER SHIELDS, and the swordsmen/spearmen Hypasps-something with ABSOLUTELY NO WEAKNESSES, and the Hetairoi and Xystophori which are JUST AS STRONG AS HETAIROI ONLY MUCH MUCH CHEAPER), some of the most richest cities in the game (Antioch, Tarsus, that area, etc) as well as quite a handful of Asia Minor (which I highly doubt it actually controlled in history).

In Every single campaign game for RTR I have, without exception, the Seleucid Empire swallows up every surrounding faction, 100% guaranteed to swallow Pontus, 40% guaranteed to swallow Armenia, 80% guaranteed to swallow Parthia, 20% guaranteed to swallow Bactria, 60% guaranteed to swallow Egypt, even some small percentages guaranteed to swallow Macedon and Greece!!!

This is utterly ridiculous! I don't care how the Seleucid Empire was in real life, if they were truly as strong as RTR makes them out to be, they'dve conquered the world, no contest. Not even Rome can counter them (in my battles, two Roman legions absolutely can NOT defeat a single stacked Seleucid army) (I'm playing VH/VH each time, sometimes H/H)

Is there ANYTHING I can do to stop them? I've been doing some furious and intense cheating (involving auto_win and process_cq cities close to Seleucid territory) and STILL they come at me with stack after stack of Hoplites virtually invulnerable to pila or javelin, and virtually invulnerable from all sides except the back, which you can't even reach with cavalry because they have elephants or chariots to smush your cavalry.

EVEN WORSE, if I DO bring my cavalry in, if they don't smother the Hoplites IMMEDIATELY, the Hoplites TURN AROUND, AIM THEIR SPEARS AT THE CAVALRY, COMPLETELY IGNORING THE LEGIONARIES ATTACKING THEM

I'm going to repeat:

COMPLETELY
IGNORING
THE LEGIONARIES
ATTACKING THEM
FROM THE FRONT

And UTTERLY DESTROY MY CAVALRY and then, this is a big one:

GO RIGHT BACK TO FIGHTING MY LEGIONARIES, NO HARM DONE!!!

This only happens if my cavalry aren't retrained with at least BRONZE or SILVER weapon upgrades and at least THREE bronze experience stripes and attack from at LEAST THREE HUNDRED FEET BACK at FULL SPEED, otherwise the cavalry get butchered no matter what

The Hypaspi-somethings--the little spearmen and swordsmen--have absolutely no weaknesses! They aren't easily routed by cavalry when attacked from behind, they aren't easily picked off by arrows, they aren't easily crushed by chariots or elephants, they aren't easily taken out by Hoplites or legionaries, they're pretty much invulnerable with regards to critical hits. Not even legionaries are this powerful (legionaries are easily taken out from behind and from arrows/javelin)

This is too ridiculous each time I see it. The Seleucids also seem to be mocking me, as when I face them off in an EVEN MATCH with two of my legions against one of theirs (my reinforcements get delayed, due to the army sizes too big for teh comp to handle) the Seleucids, no matter where they are in the campaign map, start off all the way at the edge in an effed up angle, then run away from the battle, utterly wasting my time!

Is there ANYTHING I can do to edit to make the Seleucids weaker short of disabling half their units and increasing their cost so they're more expensive?!


PS: I know in history the Seleucids were powerful, but were torn apart by internal strife and being too large to protect all borders, but I don't believe that BS is the whole story. Plus, the Seleucids in my game have absolutely no trouble with the multiple borders at all

AuthorReplies:
Ace Cataphract
HG Alumnus
(id: Ace_Cataphract)
posted 18 May 2006 19:49 EDT (US)     1 / 26       
The best that you can do is edit their starting provinces and decrease the buildings that they have. Possible even drop the amount of money they start with.

I really don't find the RTR Seleucids to be too accurate at all. Egypt under the Ptolemaic Dynasty was arguably richer than the Seleucid Empire and it certainly gained that wealth from far less territory. That and the fact that the Seleucid Empire wasn't all that powerful. They were powerful enough to be a contestant for power, but they weren't a super-power. You can find evidence in the fact that Judas Maccabeus led Israel to liberty against the Seleucids with some Ptolemaic help.

Anyway, RTR's phalanxes seem a bit over-powered in that respect. The unit's stats means that the legions can't properly take advantage of getting in close when they do, and with such high morale for all units, it means that it's almost impossible for even the worst of phalanxes to be dispatched by even a determined Roman assault.

However, as to the Hypaspistai, they actually aren't supposed to have weaknesses. The whole point IS that they're the super-elite of the infantry world and RTR reflects that. However, they're supposed to be an extreme rarity on the battlefield.


I put a dollar in one of those change machines. Nothing changed. ~George Carlin
Andariel
Banned
posted 18 May 2006 19:58 EDT (US)     2 / 26       
How do I edit starting provinces? Im a newbie and the most editing I can do it editing stuff in export_descr_unit and buildings
MisplacedPope
Legionary
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 18 May 2006 20:06 EDT (US)     3 / 26       
Actually, if you are one of the peopels near them, you can pick them apart, they are quite easy early on.

Also, later on, they can be easy too.

The best way to get the Hypaspistai is to use merc hoplites.

Archers are also key.

Also, something I do against strong factions, I just go after cities, and avoid field battles at all cost, and let them waste them selves upon my walls.


"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Ace Cataphract
HG Alumnus
(id: Ace_Cataphract)
posted 18 May 2006 20:12 EDT (US)     4 / 26       
In your Rome folder, go to Data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign(or the relevant RTR campaign) then edit "descr_strat." I gotta tell you though, that's an incredibly dense file and it's gonna take a lot of work to sift through.

I put a dollar in one of those change machines. Nothing changed. ~George Carlin
Rabidnid
Banned
posted 18 May 2006 20:26 EDT (US)     5 / 26       
I'm in the prossess of wiping them out at the moment in RTR, and the thing I've noticed is that formed infantry units just don't hold the pikes to the front like they should. If you use cavalry or irregular infantry like cyrtian swordsman they seem to be more "sticky" and hold them in place better. I've largely given up on eastern mecenaries, pikes and galatians for cyrtian swordsman and thracians. Hitting units that have just changed direction also tends to kill them off quite easily. This is my first game of RTR for months some I'm only on M/M but it should still apply at H/H at least.

The thing that really annoys me is how slow cavalry is. I charged a light horse unit into the rear of a pike unit that was charging into the rear of one of my generals who had charged the rear of a pike block and the light horse were SLOWER than the pikes (No they weren't tired or winded and their little leg button was red, but the pikes were getting away from them)

Edit. OK I juat had a unit stand still for 30 seconds while it was supposely charging, again fresh and double triangles in is flag, red in its run box, and it didn't move from the spot it was standing until after the unit it was to charge in the rear broke the unit it was in combat with.

[This message has been edited by Rabidnid (edited 05-19-2006 @ 01:14 AM).]

lars573
Legionary
posted 19 May 2006 00:31 EDT (US)     6 / 26       

Quoted from Andariel:

some of the most richest cities in the game (Antioch, Tarsus, that area, etc) as well as quite a handful of Asia Minor (which I highly doubt it actually controlled in history).


Ahem, look down.



Your monarchist friend Lars

VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

I came, I saw, I kicked ass

BeerMatt
Legionary
(id: Olondi)
posted 19 May 2006 02:51 EDT (US)     7 / 26       
(Which is why I couldn't give a stuff about 'realism' (or at least, the modder's opinion of it) in a computer game. I prefer a balanced, entertaining game designed by professionals.)

-+- Non sequiturs and weak puns a speciality -+-
skullhunter
Banned
posted 19 May 2006 06:13 EDT (US)     8 / 26       
ive noted a few probelms with RTR i own alot of the map And have lost only 5 battle's am the Romans, i find that its very rare that my mem hardly ever run away. + the units are way to slow even my ligth Cav are Very slow soo RTR does not seem all that real to me, I got the game on Hard for Campain and Normel for Battles
MisplacedPope
Legionary
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 19 May 2006 06:31 EDT (US)     9 / 26       
I find it is very realistic, and the troops aren't really that slow. Just compared to the "flash" units in RTW they are.

The combat is better, and the factions are better, that is fair and balanced.


"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Rabidnid
Banned
posted 19 May 2006 06:54 EDT (US)     10 / 26       
The factions and range of units is better, plus the skins are nice, but the messing with the combat factors and speed was unneccessary and inaccurate.
Kaidonni
Legionary
posted 19 May 2006 14:17 EDT (US)     11 / 26       
Play Hard or Very Hard for battles. Hard for campaign sounds just fine. Normal battles...eaaaaaaaaaaasy. I know it apparently gives no bonuses to anyone - seriously, though, it gets ridiculous.

(\_/)
(X.x)---------
()> <()
\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\This is Bunny roasting on an open fire. Yummy!
Andariel
Banned
posted 19 May 2006 16:02 EDT (US)     12 / 26       

Quote:

The best way to get the Hypaspistai is to use merc hoplites.

Archers are also key.

Ahem. When I said they had NO WEAKNESSES WHATSOEVER, I'm pretty sure what I really meant to say was


NO
NO
NOOOOO
WEAKNESSES
WHAT
SO
EVER!!!!
!!!


I'm pretty sure Hoplites and Archers are included in that group.

Quote:

The factions and range of units is better, plus the skins are nice, but the messing with the combat factors and speed was unneccessary and inaccurate.

Completely and utterly right. One of the biggest things I hated about Rome Total War was the shitty little MSPaint 16 Colors faction banners, which are vastly better in RTR.

The speed is VERY annoying now that the Seleucids start every battle on the edge of the map, pointed diagonally, and then run off even further into the corner so I have to CHASE them down and then they rout anyway without a shot fired, utterly wasting my time

Quote:

ive noted a few probelms with RTR i own alot of the map And have lost only 5 battle's am the Romans, i find that its very rare that my mem hardly ever run away. + the units are way to slow even my ligth Cav are Very slow soo RTR does not seem all that real to me, I got the game on Hard for Campain and Normel for Battles

Don't play the battles in normal mode, then! I think you're cheating or you rushed the Gaius Marius reforms or something, because in my RTR, the Phalanx is completely impenetrable. Unless you have cavalry to smash into their rears, they are impenetrable. Even if I completely surround them on ALL sides, they fight on to the last man, never routing, never even resorting to fighting to the death, and waste away my units obscenely. Legionaries against Phalangites of ANY Greek faction are like eastern mercenaries against them. Obscene, in my opinion.


Quote:

Actually, if you are one of the peopels near them, you can pick them apart, they are quite easy early on.

Not true at all in my experience. In my Pontus campaign, the Seleucids aren't attacking me, but every time I attack them, they give me CRUSHING DEFEATS no matter what type of units I have or what type of general. The best I've done was a CLOSE DEFEAT with my family member Spartocus who had four command stars and an army full of Pontic cavalry, special Pontic phalangites (forgot their name), chariots, missile cavalry, and lots and lots of Chalkispides and Hoplites and some Cretan archers. I fought the battle myself on the field. Their hoplites just crushed everything, even my cavalry

Rabidnid
Banned
posted 19 May 2006 17:20 EDT (US)     13 / 26       
The Pontic generals are insane, 2 wounds and AR 27 without an armoured horse. I can't count the number of my genrals I lost to these guys, at least 2/3s of my family and hundreds of light horse. The 30 strong ones aren't so bad but their king with an 80 strong bodyguard defending a city is hard work, and there are never any hoplites around to hire when you need them.
MisplacedPope
Legionary
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 19 May 2006 17:35 EDT (US)     14 / 26       
In my Pontic campaign I was able to strike straight through western Asia Minor, and paved a way of cities getting to Antioch, using mostly mercenaries.

Also, they are defeatable, I have done it many times.

Hoplites work best against hypaspistai because they can attack them without being hit. And they also get set up perfectly to be hit by cavalry.

As the Romans, I didn't have your trouble, and I play on VH VH, except my first time in which I played VH campaign and hard battle.


"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
TheGoldChevron01
Legionary
posted 20 May 2006 05:11 EDT (US)     15 / 26       
Maybe the seleucids in RTR are just getting their own back for really sucking big time in RTW?
shadowarmy
Legionary
(id: shadowarmy75)
posted 20 May 2006 10:59 EDT (US)     16 / 26       
It's supposed to be hard. How would you go about fighting a long line of soldier with 15 foot spears pointing at you in real life. Like in my RTR campaign as the Romans, I gathered all my units and attacked Phyrrus. I lost but barely. The enemy attacked with 4 or 5 units that I destroyed with heavy casualties. Then I saw Phyrrus in the forest and I charged my calvalry at him. It turns out the AI hid units in the forest and most of my calvalry was destroyed. I marched the rest of my depleated army into the forest and fought a hard battle. I was able to surround them but the units attacking the front of the phalanxes routed and they destroyed the rest of my army.

"The most virtuous are those who content themselves with being virtuous without seeking to appear so."-Plato
MisplacedPope
Legionary
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 20 May 2006 11:01 EDT (US)     17 / 26       
See, that is far more realistic then you'll ever get in RTW.

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Andariel
Banned
posted 20 May 2006 14:45 EDT (US)     18 / 26       

Quote:

How would you go about fighting a long line of soldier with 15 foot spears pointing at you in real life.


I'd be crushing the es eych eye tee out of them from behind with cavalry. Unfortunately, that's a crap shoot in RTR, because as I had BLARED OUT above:

Quote:

if I DO bring my cavalry in, if they don't smother the Hoplites IMMEDIATELY, the Hoplites TURN AROUND, AIM THEIR SPEARS AT THE CAVALRY, COMPLETELY IGNORING THE LEGIONARIES ATTACKING THEM

COMPLETELY
IGNORING
THE LEGIONARIES
ATTACKING THEM
FROM THE FRONT

And UTTERLY DESTROY MY CAVALRY and then, this is a big one:

Quote:

GO RIGHT BACK TO FIGHTING MY LEGIONARIES, NO HARM DONE!!!


[/q]

Let me detail it further so you can understand:

Let's say my legionaries are stuck in fierce battle with some Gold shields (the most common bunch I encounter with the Seleucids), and I bring some Galatian cavalry around them. Unfortunately, the Galatians are idiots, and slag around moving slowly and disconnected. Maybe some twenty feet away, I order them to charge into the Gold shields. They do it very sloppily, moving very slowly. The gold shields suffer some hard casualties, maybe lose a maximum of 30-50 men, then swing their spears around effortlessly and kill the cavalry with ease. The legionaries are still fighting, and are now furiously attacking the Gold shields who have just TURNED THEIR BACKS on them, but they don't die easy. With the cavalry done, the Gold shields effortlessly turn their spears back around to bear on the legionaries. Morale throughout all this goes to Shaken when attacked by the cavalry, then Steady, then Eager when they go back to fighting the legionaries.

MisplacedPope
Legionary
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 20 May 2006 14:50 EDT (US)     19 / 26       
If you are doing VH VH then that explains the morale.

Of course galatians won't do as good in a charge because
they don't use spears, and they are a less disciplined
cavalry unit.

The reason why it doesn't effect the Gold shields is because when the spears spin they'll still have a line of guys out back dueling with your legionaires.


"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Blunderboy
Legionary
posted 20 May 2006 15:12 EDT (US)     20 / 26       

Quote:

Ahem. When I said they had NO WEAKNESSES WHATSOEVER, I'm pretty sure what I really meant to say was


NO
NO
NOOOOO
WEAKNESSES
WHAT
SO
EVER!!!!
!!!


There's no need to be a jackass about it. People are only trying to help, and you respond like a petulant child.


WWW.C3LL.NET - War is C3ll
Official RTWH Spelling Enforcement Officer
Voted The Most Normal Looking Forumer, 2005
The saddest sight in all the world is a battle lost. The second saddest sight is a battle won.
Rabidnid
Banned
posted 20 May 2006 16:20 EDT (US)     21 / 26       
The AI does cheat on VH which is why I don't use it, once you get over H you have no right to complain about the AI cheating because its not like it going to complicate your life any other way.

I my current Sarmation campaign on M/M I've destroyed the Armenians and Pontus, have 2/3s of Selucia and am currently at war with Macedon, Ptolomy and the Selucids. It may be harder on the higher setting but it takes long enough now to kill off 2,500 pikes with 700 horse archers, especially since the pikes are faster than light horse and will run down and destroy a couple in every battle, even if the rest can be eliminated fairly painlessly.

Edit.

In my last battle I lost 5 light horse broken and routed off the battlefield.

2 were attacked by pikes that were exactly perpendicular to the edge of the so the light horse couldn't make up their minds which way to run and and so ran in circles until squashed against the table edge -- that happens, no big deal.

3 were run down by pikes, in all 3 cases the light horse were running and less fatigued that the pikes, in one case they were both going up hill.

Its only a matter of time until I go back to BI where this dosen't happen.

[This message has been edited by Rabidnid (edited 05-20-2006 @ 04:27 PM).]

Andariel
Banned
posted 20 May 2006 16:37 EDT (US)     22 / 26       

Quote:

There's no need to be a jackass about it. People are only trying to help, and you respond like a petulant child.

No, those people are talking down to me like a petulant child. I respond the way the startling turn of events affect me, in such a way which makes me want to howl at the moon and rip something big and metallic into itty bitty filings and maybe kill something big like a buffalo with my bare hands.

SireSpartan
Legionary
posted 20 May 2006 16:47 EDT (US)     23 / 26       
svsgvxcvxcvxc

"A Sire Unit in Sparta meant a suicide unit, as each soldier was expected to die in his mission."
Blunderboy
Legionary
posted 20 May 2006 16:57 EDT (US)     24 / 26       

Quote:

No, those people are talking down to me like a petulant child. I respond the way the startling turn of events affect me, in such a way which makes me want to howl at the moon and rip something big and metallic into itty bitty filings and maybe kill something big like a buffalo with my bare hands.


That's not the way it comes across man.

Quote:

svsgvxcvxcvxc


Thank you very much for this very important contribution to the disscussion.


WWW.C3LL.NET - War is C3ll
Official RTWH Spelling Enforcement Officer
Voted The Most Normal Looking Forumer, 2005
The saddest sight in all the world is a battle lost. The second saddest sight is a battle won.
shadowarmy
Legionary
(id: shadowarmy75)
posted 20 May 2006 18:21 EDT (US)     25 / 26       
I bet you that means something in Greek.

"The most virtuous are those who content themselves with being virtuous without seeking to appear so."-Plato
Andariel
Banned
posted 22 May 2006 15:43 EDT (US)     26 / 26       

Quote:

That's not the way it comes across man.

Because there are no WORDS that could POSSIBLY the convey the full effect of how I feel when that happens! ><

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