You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Rome: Total War Discussion
Moderated by Terikel Grayhair, General Sajaru, Awesome Eagle

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.21 replies
Total War Heaven » Forums » Rome: Total War Discussion » Why is it that the Greek's have...
Bottom
Topic Subject:Why is it that the Greek's have...
jump_offa_house
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 15:35 EDT (US)         
..absolutely no non-missile Infantry other than Hoplites? I mean sure the Greek's were famous for their ranks of disciplined hoplites, but surely they must have had some other light or heavy infantry capable of fighting hand to hand with other units with out a great sodding pike??

"Only the dead have seen the end of war"-Plato
AuthorReplies:
Rubber Soul 65
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 15:39 EDT (US)     1 / 21       
Even in Age of Dreadful Mythology the Greeks got Hypapsist swordsmen

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
The Sav
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 16:06 EDT (US)     2 / 21       
No, it was great sodding pikes all round.

THere is a mod called (i think) the extended greek mod (XGM) that gives them a heap of new units, including non-phalanx infantry. However, i think it makes them a little too paowerful, but have never played it so could be wrong.

From the pics i have seen of the mod, the units look GREAT!

EmperorsLegion
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 16:17 EDT (US)     3 / 21       
What is this mod exactly? Where can we get it?

I came, I saw, I conquered
-Gaius Julius Caesar

"I am 35 years old, I am thrice divorced, and I live in a van down by the river!"
-Matt Foley, motivational speaker

War is hell
-William T. Sherman
CK the Fat
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 16:36 EDT (US)     4 / 21       
Hypasists were more in the ancient times, however, before the big phalanx warfare came about. The Greeks have so many hoplites in RTW because it is just the right time period for them.

"Republicans who did not play the patronage game were ridiculed as the Mugwumps for sitting on the fence--their "mugs" on one side of the fence and "wumps" on the other. Historians generally consider this era a low point in American politics."--United States History by John J. Newman and John M. Schmalbach
jump_offa_house
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 16:40 EDT (US)     5 / 21       
http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=712

I think this is it, with links to the screenies and the forum.

So historically, the Greeks lacked Sword armed infantry aroudn this period CK??


"Only the dead have seen the end of war"-Plato
CK the Fat
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 16:47 EDT (US)     6 / 21       
It was not prefererable to phalanx warfare. Besides, hoplite carried short swords anyway--why make seperate units? Only later on when skirmishers and velites and superior light infantry tactics did phalanx warfare start to dissipate, and the Greek empire fell to the Romans largely due to their outdated style of combat.

"Republicans who did not play the patronage game were ridiculed as the Mugwumps for sitting on the fence--their "mugs" on one side of the fence and "wumps" on the other. Historians generally consider this era a low point in American politics."--United States History by John J. Newman and John M. Schmalbach
jump_offa_house
Legionary
posted 11 July 2006 16:55 EDT (US)     7 / 21       
Thanks for the History lesson CK, I appreciate it.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war"-Plato
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 11 July 2006 17:05 EDT (US)     8 / 21       

Quote:

Greek empire


Quote:

Greek City states


Fixed Sorry, a pet peeve of mine.

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Thanatos
Legionary
(id: deathmaster666)
posted 12 July 2006 08:27 EDT (US)     9 / 21       

Quote:

Even in Age of Dreadful Mythology the Greeks got Hypapsist swordsmen

I rather liked it.

Help me to tally the forums belief patterns, vote in my poll

Tally so far:-
Agnostics:18
Atheists:28
Theists:42
shadowarmy
Legionary
(id: shadowarmy75)
posted 12 July 2006 10:47 EDT (US)     10 / 21       

Quote:

before the big phalanx warfare came about. The Greeks have so many hoplites in RTW because it is just the right time period for them.

Isn't it the other way round? From what I recall, before the Peloponnesian War, it was purely hoplites on the battlefield charging each other and who ever broke first lost. There were few casualties and very orderly. Then during and after the Peloponnesian War, there were lighter troops such as Peltasts and hoplites carried less armour to have more mobility.


"The most virtuous are those who content themselves with being virtuous without seeking to appear so."-Plato

[This message has been edited by shadowarmy75 (edited 07-12-2006 @ 10:47 AM).]

CK the Fat
Legionary
posted 12 July 2006 12:28 EDT (US)     11 / 21       
You're right about the early hoplites, they carried much shorter spears and used them as a base weapon. No real designated formation, just kind of a mad skirmish. But weapons only became heavier, not lighter, as well as armor. Then the loose system of combat was turned into a rigid one with phalanxes and battle lines and all, which is the warfare of Alexander's time.

"Republicans who did not play the patronage game were ridiculed as the Mugwumps for sitting on the fence--their "mugs" on one side of the fence and "wumps" on the other. Historians generally consider this era a low point in American politics."--United States History by John J. Newman and John M. Schmalbach
kburkert
Legionary
posted 12 July 2006 17:09 EDT (US)     12 / 21       
Hoplites had short spears and they used the over arm fromation (not the phalanx which was used by philip and alexander). RTW dosnt show the phalanx accuratly as it would kill many units before they reached the second layer of spears (there where normally 3-4 layers of spears, eg

<-<-<-<-()()()()()
<-<-<-<-()()()()()
<-<-<-<-()()()()()
<-<-<-<-()()()()()
and so one...)
Its true that many soldiers adopted the phalanx formation after alexander and philip but the greeks could not let go of the over arm formation as that had been there main formation. The early romans and etruscans used it untill they found better ways to beat the greeks.

Hypaspists (sorry if thats not spelt right, i couldnt be bothered to check) are support for the foot soldiers (the soldiers that do the phalanx formation), they used a sword and sometimes a javlin. They often protected the flank. In Alexander TW (the new RTW game) the hypaspists had spears instead of swoerds. After the death of Alexander and philip the greeks did adopt swords as weapons but they was not added into RTW.

If you are looking for a good greek mod i suggest XGM (as above) heres a link to the read me http://homepage.mac.com/abradbury/xgmread/xgmreadme.htmland heres the .org forums http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=46285&page=12

jump_offa_house
Legionary
posted 13 July 2006 06:41 EDT (US)     13 / 21       
Elephants

The Greek Cities and Macedon can now recruit the same elephant units that are available to the Seleucids, with the same requirements. Pontus, Armenia, and Egypt can now train war elephants. Numidia can train forest and war elephants.

Requirements: Only settlements with an elephant resource can train elephant units.
===============================================

So does that mean that you would need to conquer a city maybe in Africa to be able to recruit Elephants if you were the Greeks, for example?


"Only the dead have seen the end of war"-Plato
Aeneas2
Legionary
posted 13 July 2006 08:12 EDT (US)     14 / 21       
You would also need the appropriate stable building.

Aeneas l BFME2 Heaven l WiC Heaven
"The most important thing is to remember to have fun! After all, what else could be the point of nuking your friends?" - Cheesewiz
mercury9
Legionary
posted 13 July 2006 13:02 EDT (US)     15 / 21       
Technically, the greeks have always had a non-phalanx unit. Just take a unit of hoplites and disable phalanx formation. I use that to gaurd my flanks and it is quite effective.

"The best defense is a good offense" -I Forget
" in battle, if you know you cannot beat your enemy, give him mean looks and act like you're about to do something heroic. it might scare him into doing something stupid. If not, act like you died"
- Me
jump_offa_house
Legionary
posted 13 July 2006 16:00 EDT (US)     16 / 21       
So does anyone have any idea which cities can enable Elephant recruitment to civ's not usually able to recruit them in XGM?

"Only the dead have seen the end of war"-Plato
Soccerguy828
Legionary
posted 14 July 2006 14:15 EDT (US)     17 / 21       
I have XGM! it's one of the best mods. i have. yeah one of the reasons why i installed mods. because the Greeks were like crap when they didnt have any hoplites. ill get a screenshot of hypaspists and others if you'll like jump_offa_house.
jump_offa_house
Legionary
posted 14 July 2006 14:49 EDT (US)     18 / 21       
Thanks Soccerguy, I appreciate the offer, but I downloaded it when someone reccomended it right at the start of the topic, and have been playing it since!

But seriously, thanks alot mate.


"Only the dead have seen the end of war"-Plato
Melea Lord
Legionary
posted 15 July 2006 07:47 EDT (US)     19 / 21       
If you make it so "guard Position" and "Phalanx Formation" is off they will fight like infantry. I hardly ever use the phalanx formation! Except when defending cities, ofcourse.
JOYA
Legionary
posted 15 July 2006 21:48 EDT (US)     20 / 21       
Really? I'll definately have to try that. I can't believe I never thought about that before!
CK the Fat
Legionary
posted 16 July 2006 15:25 EDT (US)     21 / 21       
A hoplite formation with secure flanks can kill entire enemy units, make the enemy army entirely route 2-3 times before fleeing for good, and make it so that you haven't lost a soldier. Armored hoplites are generally arrowproof from the dead front, though the occasional arrow might deliver a death blow. This is something virtually no other faction can do.

I'd rather use a phalanx than make all my armored hoplites fight hand-to-hand and suffer many more casualties.


"Republicans who did not play the patronage game were ridiculed as the Mugwumps for sitting on the fence--their "mugs" on one side of the fence and "wumps" on the other. Historians generally consider this era a low point in American politics."--United States History by John J. Newman and John M. Schmalbach
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Total War Heaven | HeavenGames