Hoppylyte
Legionary
posted 06 November 2008 20:51 EDT (US)
I'm playing as the greeks currently in campaign on m/m after finishing up as carthage. Is it just me or do Greek general calvary really really suck compared to the other sorts? After just a couple volleys from a unit of macedonian archers I usually end up losing 3-4 men! While on Carthage my general cal could absorb a ton of pila before going down. Why is it that Greek general calvary suck so much? (Not greek calvary, I know those are bad already. :P)WIth phalanxes I'm supposed to pin and flank, how do I flank with no calvary? By the way, do smaller unit sizes usually result in larger percentages of men lost?
ShieldWall
Legionary
posted 07 November 2008 05:36
EDT (US)
2 / 13
The Greeks historically never bothered with cavalry all that much, the hoplite was the profession of the well-to-do citizen. Consequently, Greek Cavalry sucks. And so do their generals bodyguard too, because they're just Greek Cavalry with two hit points, as opposed to Roman Cavalry (slightly better defence) and the extremely capable Noble Cavalry of barbarian factions.
If you were Macedon then pin with the phalanx and flank with the cavalry is obvious, because their phalanx isn't so very strong, and the cavalry is excellent. Greece though have excellent infantry and weak cavalry, so learn how to fight just with the infantry. You can flank with the hoplites too - take them out of phalanx and switch guard mode off, and they're quite effective swordsmen. Probably best only to do this with armoured hoplites and spartans though. When I play the Greeks, which I often do, my armies are almost entirely armoured hoplites with three archers and two greek cavalry along for support. The archers hit enemy missile troops, the cavalry (with armourer and nike upgrades) are good in this capacity too, but really all I bring them along for is to hunt down routers. The real fighting is done by the hoplites.
Hoppylyte
Legionary
posted 07 November 2008 19:28
EDT (US)
3 / 13
So then essientially with Macedon you pin them down with pikemen (I assume that's why they have more men per unit) and just hold the line while your calvary comes to the rescue while greece on the other hand generally can push THROUGH the enemy lines with the superior hoplites? And I've noticed that Greek general calvary doesn't have shields. Could somebody please check if that might be why they seem less durable? Thanks.
Pandar
Legionary
posted 07 November 2008 21:52
EDT (US)
4 / 13
Pikes > hoplites. Longer spears will push through shorter spears since they can kill a hoplite before the spear gets to him. Most of the time. doesn't work if the hoplites push through the spear well (ex. more durable hoplites (spartans, armoured))
ShieldWall
Legionary
posted 08 November 2008 05:48
EDT (US)
6 / 13
Well that's the theory with pikes. The problem is that they have to attack (circa 7-10 attack) a line of stationary hoplites with about 24+ for defence. Armoured hoplites don't go down easy with all that armour, and as soon as those pikes close up and get within thrusting range, lots of pikemen will die. And it's worse if the hoplites have had the sense to position themselves up a slope. There's ways you can manipulate all of this to give you an advantage, such as stopping the pikes from advancing as soon as their first pikes are hitting the Greek line, technically then both sides are on the defensive and stronger for it, but the Greeks aren't close enough to fight. I dare say playing against a human opponent and not the AI messes things up very interestingly too. But on the AI, I'm always happiest with hoplites.
Hoppylte (delighted that someone has used that name at last!) - Actually I fight the same way with Macedon as you can always win with a strong phalanx, generally I prefer to defend and let the enemy die on my spear points. But yes the pin and flank option is perfectly valid here. As to Greek Cavalry lacking a shield, they do indeed lack one, but so do all Greeks - even companion cavalry go into battle without one, if they didn't then they'd probably be more powerful that Praetorian Cavalry. A shield is the only thing that gives Roman Cavalry and Equites an edge against the Greeks too.
Hoppylyte
Legionary
posted 08 November 2008 18:26
EDT (US)
7 / 13
I've tried armor hoplites vs silver shields and silver shields win, however when it's sacred band vs silver sheilds the sacred band usually only lose 10-20 men on huge scale. As far as I see, the only thing that's the Greek city states saving grace compared to carthage is Spartans which are very impractical to use on both campaign and on MP (unless you have unlimited $$$) and archers/creteans. Thanks for all the help everybody.
wolfthe3rd
Legionary
posted 09 November 2008 01:25
EDT (US)
8 / 13
My advice for greek cavalry is to combine them
ie. use ur militia cavalry with ur greek cavalry and dont bother with spears use them for sheer force as greek cavalry units by themselevse really suck
instead of having cavalry on two wings of ur force try just 1
ur hoplites can handle any enemy cavalry
just my advice
wolf
ShieldWall
Legionary
posted 09 November 2008 11:55
EDT (US)
10 / 13
Silver Shields beat Armoured hoplites? That don't make a whole lot of sense. Everytime I've put hoplites up against sarissas, they've won by a street and a half. There can be a problem, as I said before, if the sarissa phalanx stops advancing towards the hoplites at a point where they can hit them but can't get hit themselves. But advance the hoplites forward within range, they'll take a few losses doing so, but if you cancel orders on contact to put them on the defensive, the tables will turn very quickly. It then becomes a case of armour and big shields vs not much armour and daft little shields.
Basically if you get two competent phalanxes going up against each other, the defender will always win because defence stats are about 1.5 to 2x stronger than attack. It's simple maths. Armoured Hoplites attacking Sacred Band will lose, and Sacred Band lose attacking Armoured Hoplites. Despite the fact that statistically, Sacred Band have a narrow edge. When I go up against Carthage as Greece, I don't meet all that many Sacred Bands as they're a top tier unit, armoured hoplites though are far easier to obtain and so plentiful. Even so I give the hoplites the edge by letting one load of hoplites defend against them, while another hit them in the side.
Andalus
Legionary
posted 10 November 2008 05:07
EDT (US)
12 / 13
Skirmishers often make surprisingly good flankers, due to their speed, and their ability to get some javelins in first. Just watch out if the enemy has nearby cavalry!
Pandar
Legionary
posted 10 November 2008 17:45
EDT (US)
13 / 13
I remember a game where it was basically my 2 exhausted velites guarding a town square against 80 exhausted militia hoplites. I flanked with the velites to do as much damage as possible .. and the hoplites ROUTED! I laughed at that, that was beautiful, and I won the battle.