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Total War Heaven » Forums » Rome: Total War Discussion » Cretan Archers beats Spartans .. in PURE MELEE!!!!!
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Topic Subject:Cretan Archers beats Spartans .. in PURE MELEE!!!!!
Medifro
Legionary
posted 03 June 2009 04:42 EDT (US)         
I just had the wierdist battle in my whole strategy gaming history. This damn thing proves how cool TW engine is when it comes to realism. Damn I wish I could get a replay.

FULL SCENARIO: Vanilla 1.5, my 2nd long campaign, I'm Brutii, 259BC, currently have the coast from Salona to Athens, I'm expanding up north to the Macedonians, and just got Cornith which is now sieged by a heavy Greek army ( 7 Hoplites and one Spartans, all "level 2" .. Dont know the term ), plus a small force acting as a reinforcement( 3 Hoplites ).

I had no way to beat that with my defending force ( at least not at my skill level),I sent an army which I already had outside to siege Sparta (weak defense= 1 Hoplite unit only) to make the enemy lift the siege.

His turn, they did, sent the small reinforcements which I beat. Larger army lifts the siege and attacks. My plan was to withdraw, it followed me and I had to battle. I was like "NOOO!!!" ( I didnt plan this that far lol )

My army consists of 3 Hastati,1 Velites, 2 Equites,1 Merc Hoplite, 1 Cretan Archer, 1 General.

Had the Velites go at the extreme flank and shoot the flanks of Spartans, distracting them from the main line. Worked nice till they ran out of ammo and instantly routed in melee. 2 Spartans went down only.

During all that, fire arrows on their marching line till the contact. My main line was doing far better than I thought:
At left wing, 1 Hastati + kept hitting the backs with the Equites.enemy routes, from there the Hastati went to the rear of the units in the heavy center, with the caverly hitting the flanks and the rear. The other wing had the Merc Hoplite, I left it as I thought it'll hold out longer, put a General at the back *cheering up for the Morale boast. My single archer unit was firing at the routed units.

At the end, all my units routed except the Cretan archers (no ammo). All They had a small Hoplite ( approx 12) which was pursuing units, and 78 Spartans. My archers were at quite far from both. I waited for the Spartans to march, as soon as they got close, I charged.

After a fight, they routed!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( Archers from 80==> down to 42!!). They were *Very Tired*, my Archers were *Warmed up*. Once they routed, archers finished the job=> not a single Spartans left! I finished off the other Hoplite and won the damn battle!

I was fast-forwarding during the Spartan fight, I thought that this is it. As I saw my archers numbers dropping slowly I was like O______________O Am I ... winning? .. HOLY *****

At the statistics, Archers inflicted 202 casualties. I screen-saved it, though just lost it as I'm writing this. DAMN.

This game is AWESOME. I'm new by the way, if its normal for archers to beat spartans, then sorry for wasting your time. lol

I just never thought that the physical state of units matter so much. In a siege, I used to send heavy units all the time just after finishing up the wall to the town center, and they were *exhausted*.

[This message has been edited by Medifro (edited 06-03-2009 @ 04:46 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Hussarknight
Seraph Emeritus
posted 03 June 2009 13:12 EDT (US)     1 / 7       
How tired an unit is seriously affects it's performance in combat. The situation you described would never have happened if the Spartans were still fresh. There are also many other factors that can affect the outcome of the fight, like having a height advantage and charging.

          Hussarknight
mikecz
Legionary
posted 03 June 2009 15:38 EDT (US)     2 / 7       
Cool... Yeah, "stuff happens" in this game, both on the strategy map & in the battles. I think it's one of the reasons it still has some decent popularity almost 5 years after it was released.
The other wing had the Merc Hoplite, I left it as I thought it'll hold out longer,
In tight battles, you really need to pause pretty often to micromanage what's happening on different areas of the battlefield. Try to learn to keep half an eye on your unit cards so you're truly aware of who is taking damage & then do something about that.

It sounds like early on in this battle you lured off the slow tough Spartans (a good idea) but then burned up your velites too fast. Probably should has just kept the velites out of reach of the Spartans until someone could help them out.

Otherwise, you were starting to roll up the enemy line. You're using the strong tactic of fighting with VERY local superiority. Both quality & quantity of your men can make the difference. In one of my very best battles ever, my old Scipii faction leader had Sparta under siege. The Greek reinforcements attacked us, making the odds 1:2 against us. Twice in this battle my unit of PEASANTS changed the enemy moral to "concerned about the number of enemy" & then the armored hoplites broke to route!

Cretan archers has higher than usual morale (but so do Spartan hoplites!) So, yeah, fatigue can be a big deal. Note that any unit which has the luxury of standing still will regain condition. Horse units actually even when walking slowly regain condition. Foot units that have have "fast moving" in their description regain condition a teensy faster than units which do not. Watch the clock - if actually only a third (or even half) the sand has dropped in the hourglass, you have a lot of time still. I've won a number of battles that I shouldn't have, probably, by being able to rest my units while the enemy was struggling over the terrain. These are most commonly when I have a few horse units (maybe one is a general) that have been ambushed by a large-ish mostly infantry/scirmisher army. By splitting off enemy units, running & resting & then attacking, I've won a number of heroic victories that were really tense.

Have fun with this game!
Temur
HG Alumnus
(id: Gaiseric)
posted 04 June 2009 09:23 EDT (US)     3 / 7       
This game is AWESOME. I'm new by the way
Hahaha, reminds me of the days when I had just bought RTW and rushed home every weekend to vegetate in front of it. It's like a drug when you first get it.

"War does not decide who is right... only who is left." -Bertrand Russell
Andalus
Legionary
posted 04 June 2009 09:54 EDT (US)     4 / 7       
Foot units that have have "fast moving" in their description regain condition a teensy faster than units which do not.
Not quite true. The fast moving is simply related to how fast the unit moves. Also, not all 'fast moving' units move at the same speed. With cavalry, for instance, both light and medium horses have the 'fast moving' ability, yet the light is slightly faster. What you are thinking of is 'Good stamina' or 'Very good stamina'. Units with good stamina will get tired slower, and recuperate faster. Most General's bodyguards have good stamina, which is one more reason you can accomplish so much with a single general (Aside from the double hitpoints).

As has been said, exhaustion has a huge effect on a unit's fighting capabilities. For precisely this reason, it can be wise to keep some units in reserve (Particularly with mobile all-cavalry armies), conserving their energy for a devastating charge against the weary foe. See this for an example: In this battle in the XGM mod, my cavalry were doing all the work, and I left those 8 Phalangites to the side in safety. Towards the end of the battle, I charged these exhausted Germans with them, and they immediately broke.


Remember: Tiredness kills. Take a break and a coffee every two hours.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 04 June 2009 12:33 EDT (US)     5 / 7       
Also morale. If I were a Spartan, I wouldn't like it if all my friends ran away.

EDORIX
~ ancient briton ~

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*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.
Medifro
Legionary
posted 06 June 2009 04:45 EDT (US)     6 / 7       
Great replys people. Thanks
holeyfoley
Legionary
posted 08 June 2009 03:39 EDT (US)     7 / 7       
this is a weird thing that happened to me.. i had a small army right...

1 early roman general
2 velites
2 hastati
1 princepe

this was a while go any way what happened:

is seiged a carthage city lilybaeum i think anyway i sieged them but they attacked right away anyway they poured out the gates and they moved everybody out apart from one unit of peasants so after a while it was just my general left on my side know as soon as the peasants started coming out of the gate i attacked.

and as we were fighting my unit sllowly moved through the gate at captured them! the peasants routed so i ran round and captured all the gates so no other units could get in i then beat the peasants waited three minutes and won it was awesome?!?!?

Carpe nocteim - seize the night...

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(o o)
(~)
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