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Topic Subject:The "Help! I'm losing money!" thread
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Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 11:37 EDT (US)         
Since there has been made and asked continuous threads and questions about how to stop losing money in Rome: Total War, I decided to make a guide. Person after person have asked for help after they are losing money and can't understand why. "My big cities are losing lots of money! I have to exterminate!". Read this before you do. This guide will help you gain a better grasp on your empire, improve game-strategy, your financial moves and improve overall management of your empire.

Lord Ahm's guide to reducing the army upkeep

First you need to understand what army upkeep is. Army upkeep is an amount of money you have to pay each turn, how much money depends on how big your army is. Food for your soldiers and keeping weapons and armour in good condition are two things that is part of the army upkeep.

The army upkeep is divided on all your cities. For example: You have a huge army in Arretium, that army needs money to maintain itself. The army upkeep in that army will not be paid by Arretium just because the army's location is at Arretium. The upkeep expenditure will be divided to all your settlements, and the one with most citizens will pay most money.

Thats why your bigger cities are loosing money, those cities have so many citizens that they pay a large part of the army upkeep.

Then why not exterminate, so that there will be fewer citizens?

Exterminating won't help you in the long run. Sure, you get some thousand denarii that turn, but the army upkeep will just be divided to other cities. If you exterminate a large city, that pay a lot army upkeep, the income will simply decrease a bit in all other settlements, the amount they will decrease is identical as the one you loose in the big city you exterminated.

Example: Patavium is your biggest city, in Patavium there are 18 000 citizens. The income every turn is -2800 denarii. You exterminate and the population drops to 6000 citizens. You are now making 800 each turn in Patavium. "That's great!" you think, but in the next turns -2400 denarii is divided to the income of your 4 other cities.

How can I reduce the army upkeep?

To reduce the army upkeep, simply reduce the amount of soldiers! You still need forces to defend and expand your territory. You don't need much garrison in cities that are surrounded by your own regions. Have a look at this:

[JPEG, (168.83 KB)]

Here we can see that the player has a lot more garrison than he or she needs. Arretium and Ariminum have full stack garrisons! Both Arretium and Ariminum are surrounded by the players own regions (and the other Roman regions, but the player doesn't have to worry about civil war yet), therefore the player don't need much other garrison than one or two units. The other cities probably don't need that much garrison either, the armies should be out conquering new lands, not stay idle in a city.

As you also can see, the money issue isn't going too well. The player has too many forces, and too few cities to handle the army upkeep. So many forces creates a huge army upkeep. Patavium has 17075 citizens and is the biggest city with most citizens. They pay most of the army upkeep. Segesta have only 556 citizens, and pay very little army upkeep. If the player disbands or fight with some of the garrison, the army upkeep will go down. If the player doesn't get rid of some of the troops, or get some new cities, the money will go even more into minus because the upkeep is too big for just 6 cities.

[JPEG, (167.23 KB)]

This is a much better situation. The player has placed small garrisons in Arretium and Ariminum, and is concentrating the big armies on the borders of the empire. Since the huge garrisons are gone, the army upkeep is now much smaller.

So, if you want to decrease your army upkeep, try smaller garrisons and concentrate your main forces on conquering new lands and defending the borders of the empire.

What units should I use as garrison?

If you left-click on any unit, you will see their stats, if you look at the bottom of this list, you will see: "Upkeep" and there you see how much upkeep the unit require. The most ideal unit for garrison is Peasants. They are cheap, have a lot of men and cost only 100 denarii upkeep. Town Watch/Town Militia also have only 100 denarii upkeep. And remember: 30 Peasants are just as good as 30 Urban Cohort when it comes to garrison. It is the numbers which matters in garrison, not quality. That's why Peasants are so good. It can, however, be smart to keep better quality troops as garrison in cities which are in danger of being besieged (since fighting isn't exactly Peasants forte).

I followed your advice, but the citizens in the city are unhappy since there are so little garrison present!

If there are a governor in the city (or the city not is automanaged), lower the taxes. If the city is automanaged, set the policy to "Growth Policy". This will lower the taxes and make the citizens more happy. You loose some income, but you'll make that up when you get rid of some of the army upkeep. Personally, I use Growth Policy in all my automanaged settlements, and have low tax in my governed settlements. Then I can have a small garrison and I spare a lot from army upkeep.



Update: Some thought it would be a good idea to add some general tips:

- If you is in the possession of a large empire, it can pay off to make your capital more central. Example: If you own all of Italy, Greece and Africa, you would set your capital as Sparta, rather than Rome. This causes most settlements to get less "Distance from capital" and will improve your public order.

- Also (I think most of you know) Greece is the wealthiest area on the map. If you own all of Greece, your sea and land trade will produce heavy money.

- When you hold the cursor over a building, it will say for example: "Paved Roads (Greek)". If you build a Roman Highway, the building will not be Greek anymore. Your Culture Penalty will decrease when you have more buildings of your own culture


Hope this guide has been helpful. Good luck with your campaign!

Regards,
Ahm Heribeus

Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur

[This message has been edited by Lord Ahm (edited 12-30-2009 @ 08:28 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Duan Xuan
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 12:34 EDT (US)     1 / 101       
Hmm, good read, Ahm. Shouldn't this be in the GD forums though?...
Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 13:00 EDT (US)     2 / 101       

Quote:

Hmm, good read, Ahm. Shouldn't this be in the GD forums though?...

I'm unsure if I'd post it here or in the GD. Hopefully some moderator will sticky it in the right place. I hope this guide stop all those "help!" threads.


Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur
doitzelkaiseriii
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 13:38 EDT (US)     3 / 101       
Fixed the title.

However, this is in the wrong forum. The Tech help forum is for gameplay inhibiting problems with the game or bugs. Game help is covered in the GD forum, so I'll be moving it there.


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
Gaius Crassius
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 13:49 EDT (US)     4 / 101       
Another good thing to do is to get really good roads and sea routes, then specialize your settlements. If you've got 20 provinces, 2 or 3 settlements should be cranking out powerful troops, and using your transportation network to bring them where they're needed. The other settlements should work with more or less this progression;

1) Port
2) Roads
3) Mines (if possible)
4) Trader
5) Farming
6) Religion

This gets you an un-GODLY amount of money in a pretty short amount of time, particularly if you control the Agean, Ionian, or Black seas. You want the Mediterranean, but getting the whole thing is a project and a half.

With highly developed economic settlements, you can keep gigantic armies on your payroll, bribe enemy armies and build stuff at full speed while making a net profit of about 10,000 Denarii each turn. You can make about four times that if you slow down for a turn and catch your breath.

I agree 100% with the observation about garrisons, by the way.

MaximusDecimus
Legionary
(id: maximus09)
posted 29 June 2005 19:57 EDT (US)     5 / 101       
Great tips mates. Way to go.

I have a question though. Im a hella fighter so i use uber troops. I dont really like the Economical part of the game too much.
But how is it that getting rid of troops in the city lowers the upkeep? You still have the same ammount of troops al togheter so the payrool muct be the same wather in of out of the city right?

Also another thing, when i have only 2-4 peasent units in a city that means i have to have uber low taxes. And i hate that. Help me out on my campiane game play m8


________________________________
/I've got nothin...I'm fo like'a bajillion!\
axel nuget
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 20:13 EDT (US)     6 / 101       
whowwwwww!! you should make a guide for making more than one full stack army. i always find it hard to dopleas? *blink* *blink*[code][/code]

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blacksteeltrarii
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 20:59 EDT (US)     7 / 101       
It's easy. All you do is start training units from cities that are close together and set the rally point to be the same. I formed four strong armies from my extra units.

"The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural"-Chancellor Palpatine
"Is it possible to learn these powers?"-Anakin
"Not from a Jedi."-Chancellor Palpatine
Blinded by love, you think about the girl of your dreams. YOu think she is perfect. You see no flaw in her. You want to tell how what you feel about her, yet is too scared to.
axel nuget
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 21:02 EDT (US)     8 / 101       
thnx thats good but what provinces are close together for germania in MM mode

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(>< ) this is bunny. copy bunny on to your signature to help him to world domination!

MONKEYS RIDING FLIYING PIGS WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD ON 2007!- Axel nuget (me)

FFCBairn
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 22:10 EDT (US)     9 / 101       
Come on now. He gave you the basic principle behind the idea. He shouldn't have to play the game for you too.

Basically have small garrisons on your interior towns. Protect your borders with armies and larger garrisons.

KaiserWinterfeldt
Legionary
(id: Night_Raider)
posted 29 June 2005 22:16 EDT (US)     10 / 101       
Most of your cities are close together. The area around Teutoburgum is the hotspot, and your Scandanvian provinces don't need much of a garrison.

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Plecoman
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 23:27 EDT (US)     11 / 101       
Well guess i don't have a problem with that...hehehe

I chuck in cheap troops in cities that are under my territories. Riots happen and i get thrown out. I always have spare praetorians in the midst of troubled areas...standby. And they are highly ranked...u can guess why. Example i use Carthage to churn out quality troops and send them to numidian area(captured by me) in a central location. So if a riot starts, I can move them in to regain control of the city.

I dun use Legionary cohorts except for far away regions like Byzantium where resupply can take forever. Don'tspend on unnecessary building unless u think its really important. Some controlled area do not need the best barracks.

GMRage
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 02:53 EDT (US)     12 / 101       

Quote:


Also another thing, when i have only 2-4 peasent units in a city that means i have to have uber low taxes. And i hate that. Help me out on my campiane game play m8

Check the city management scroll. You might find that 2-4 peasant units isn't enough to garrison the city & enforce good order. If the city is large, then you may well need MANY units to enforce order. (you can have up to 80% public order from garrison. If your city only says 25% garrison, then that's your problem right there - build more peasants.)

Also, check what else is making the population unhappy & build those buildings that will help with happiness (temples, etc).

Once you have done all this, you should be able to crank up the tax rate.

Good luck
GM


Stupid questions & their appropriate responses from an Australian tourism web site:

Q: Which direction is North in Australia? (USA)
A: Face south and then turn 180 degrees. Contact us when you get here and we'll send the rest of the directions.

Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 04:03 EDT (US)     13 / 101       
Nudget: Taking the troops out of the settlement won't help you. If you fight with them, and they die (don't waste them though) the army will be smaller. If you have a large empire, you can get a couple of fullstack armies, just by gathering your garrisons. You have to set your taxes low, yes, but then you need fewer tropps to garrison. Then you can dispand or use your extra garrisons in battle, your army upkeep becomes smaller. Hopefully, the amount of denarii you save from army upkeep will overcome the amount you loose from taxes.

Hope this helps.


Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur
Draigh
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 09:28 EDT (US)     14 / 101       
sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky

Outoi sunechthein,
Alla sunphilein ephun
- Antigonθ

Not to hate,
But to Love I was born

Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 09:31 EDT (US)     15 / 101       

Quote:

sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky

If a moderator sticky this, there will be a stop to all those "Help! omg!" threads.


Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur

[This message has been edited by Lord Ahm (edited 06-30-2005 @ 09:31 AM).]

axel nuget
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 10:30 EDT (US)     16 / 101       
srry

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(>< ) this is bunny. copy bunny on to your signature to help him to world domination!

MONKEYS RIDING FLIYING PIGS WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD ON 2007!- Axel nuget (me)

KaiserWinterfeldt
Legionary
(id: Night_Raider)
posted 30 June 2005 10:35 EDT (US)     17 / 101       
I just requested this thread be stickied, hope it comes through...

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GLORYOFSPARTA
Seraph (in absentia)
posted 30 June 2005 20:49 EDT (US)     18 / 101       
Nice thread.

It's actually newsed on the front page.


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greasypig
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 21:19 EDT (US)     19 / 101       
Lord Ahm, am I to gather from some of these posts that un-garrisoned armies, i.e. armies out in the field, don't count towards your army upkeep?

"We must fight so well, that each man believes himself to be the chief cause of our victory."
blacksteeltrarii
Legionary
posted 30 June 2005 21:27 EDT (US)     20 / 101       
Armies not in cities do count toward army upkeep.

"The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural"-Chancellor Palpatine
"Is it possible to learn these powers?"-Anakin
"Not from a Jedi."-Chancellor Palpatine
Blinded by love, you think about the girl of your dreams. YOu think she is perfect. You see no flaw in her. You want to tell how what you feel about her, yet is too scared to.
Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 01 July 2005 04:58 EDT (US)     21 / 101       
Armies pay the same upkeep wether they are in a city or out in the field.

Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur
praetorian guard
Legionary
posted 01 July 2005 08:22 EDT (US)     22 / 101       
yeah and if soldiers die in a unit, the upkeep is reduced
riley555
Legionary
posted 01 July 2005 13:15 EDT (US)     23 / 101       
Egypt is good for town garrison. You can build Nubian spearmen for 100 upkeep and they can defend very well against the poor AI. (I know i've stated the obvious, but it's just for the newbs.)

[This message has been edited by riley555 (edited 07-01-2005 @ 01:16 PM).]

MaximusDecimus
Legionary
(id: maximus09)
posted 01 July 2005 13:20 EDT (US)     24 / 101       
Ahm, dont you need more garrison as you go along thow? Im trying your tips and its now 243 and in Syracuse with Scipii, i keep needing to have more garrison even with taxes on Low. I have a garrison of nearly 15 units cards there with a governer of 7 management, 2 stars, and 10 influence, and the happineed face is still at Blue. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

________________________________
/I've got nothin...I'm fo like'a bajillion!\
Gaius Cornelius
Legionary
posted 01 July 2005 13:21 EDT (US)     25 / 101       
An excellent thread. Maybe you should add in things like the wealthiest area's, and the advantages of port cities above landlocked cities.

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