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Topic Subject:Macedon
MusCypricus
Legionary
posted 11 August 2012 05:35 EDT (US)         
Here come the Macedonians. Why do they always fall to Rome? They have an exelant roster of cavalry! Is it because of there starting troops?
AuthorReplies:
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 11 August 2012 10:00 EDT (US)     1 / 28       
There are a number of reasons why the Macedonians have a difficult time, but I've had campaigns where they do quite well, conquering all of Greece and even sometimes Turkey (I'll post a screenshot later if I can find a good game for it).

The difficulties they face when run by the AI are similar to those faced by the Seleucids, if a bit less severe. They're fairly spread out, their starting units are mediocre, they're facing an opponent who has better basic troops than they do (the Greeks), they have several enemies (Greece, Dacia, Thrace), and they meet the Romans fairly early on.

If they do manage to survive and take over Greece, it's only because they're able to stymie the Brutii and wipe out the Greeks. However, they almost always fall to the Romans once the Marian Reforms take place, as their troops become significantly outclassed by legions.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
ShieldWall
Legionary
posted 12 August 2012 04:26 EDT (US)     2 / 28       
I think they fall victim to the way the AI sees things in RTW. On a battlefield, we would see a pile of sword-carrying Romans up against many phalanx units, light lancers, etc. Victory for Macedon is not certain but you've got plenty to work with there. The AI, however, just sees tier 2 and a few 3 infantry (militia and levy pikes with rather low stats) against mostly tier 3 Romans (Hastati with much better stats). A simple calculation follows and Macedon loses.

Under your control however, if you know how to use a phalanx properly then you shouldn't have any problems. Or at least not if you blitz Greece right at the start of the game, so that when the Brutii take an interest in you, they are your only enemy, you have a full stack of capable troops to take them on with and your cities are getting close to the point where they can make lots of pikemen. The biggest problem I have with Macedon is chomping at the bit and wanting to get stuck into Italy but I won't let myself until I have a proper army of Royal Pikes and Macedon cavalry.
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 12 August 2012 06:49 EDT (US)     3 / 28       
I only once played as macedon, h/h, and found it quite a challenge.

The starting units are actualy rubbish. Militia hoplites are good for their price and tier, but Greece and Trace got those too. The only advantage that levy pikeman have is long pikes and numbers, but they if something goes less than ideal for them, they'll suffer very badly. They usually lose from hoplites. Once you get phalanx pikeman you're starting to get a chance, but they cant stand up to armoured pikeman or spartans. Theyir early cavalry really isnt that good either and it will take a while before you get access to macedon and companion cavalry.

I thin both macedon and the seleucids should start with more developed cities, so they have faster access to decent troops.

And the ai of macedon has a habit of creating very large, but weak armies, mostly militia hoplites, levy pikes, skirmishers and lancers. No match for hoplite armies or roman armies. I've even seen dacia and trace conquering their northern cities.
Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)
posted 12 August 2012 08:45 EDT (US)     4 / 28       
The starting units are actualy rubbish. Militia hoplites are good for their price and tier, but Greece and Trace got those too. The only advantage that levy pikeman have is long pikes and numbers, but they if something goes less than ideal for them, they'll suffer very badly. They usually lose from hoplites. Once you get phalanx pikeman you're starting to get a chance, but they cant stand up to armoured pikeman or spartans. Theyir early cavalry really isnt that good either and it will take a while before you get access to macedon and companion cavalry.
Militia hopilites are very decent units once embedded with a bit of experience. Levy pikemen are rubbish but can be useful defending town gates. By the time you have access to phalanx pikemen you should have eliminated the Greek City states and taken Sparta(should be done asap) and they are very useful against Hastati. Light lancers have an awesome charge(9 i think) and in a group of 4 or 5 and aimed at one unit will rout them very very quickly.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 12 August 2012 21:11 EDT (US)     5 / 28       
Thessalonica starts as a minor city, which means if you begin building a barracks right away, you can be producing phalanx pikemen within four turns. Admittedly, cavalry can be more of an issue, but light lancers are quite excellent for first tier cavalry and will take equites, even 1 to 1, if they get the charge.

Also, screenshots of Macedon's early success:

As Egypt.

As Parthia.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own

[This message has been edited by General Sajaru (edited 08-12-2012 @ 09:43 PM).]

ShieldWall
Legionary
posted 13 August 2012 04:43 EDT (US)     6 / 28       
Like a number of other factions, you can't afford to hang around when playing as Macedon. The Greeks will attack, Dacia and Thrace will almost certainly have a go at Byzalora within the first dozen turns, and then the Brutii appear with ship after ship of reinforcements. So speed and aggression are the answers to avoid being swamped. Go for Greece by the throat and wipe them out before any of these other factions have the chance to attack. Once they're out of the way you'll have all Greece and its impressive economy behind you, and you are only really at risk of attack in the north. One or two armies can hold this down. Build city barracks as soon as you can, and when you take Athens, look to building triemes to stop the Romans from ferrying armies across from Italy. If you do all of this quickly, you won't have to do much fighting (other than Greece) with those low tier troops as you'll quickly build up an army of phalanx pikemen. I always hire some Thracian mercenaries too, to hammer and anvil the Spartans and Hoplites as they start chewing up my militia hoplites.
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 13 August 2012 09:51 EDT (US)     7 / 28       
I'm not saying it is impossible. In my own campaign I had taken down the Greeks (by tactical superiority over the ai, not by quality of armies) and thus secured a decent economical base.

Holding off the tracians and dacians usually isnt too difficult as long as you use defensive strategies (they will break on your phalanx).

And I was fighting a winning war again Pontus.

And from memory I even started the conquest of Italy.

I'm just saying that their units are relatively weak. I could much easier win with the greeks, who have better armored men. Armored hoplites are one of the best units in the game, and available early and untill then hoplites are more than decent too and will win from levy pikemen 1 on 1, and might even win from phalanx pikemen.
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 13 August 2012 14:54 EDT (US)     8 / 28       
I'm just saying that their units are relatively weak. I could much easier win with the greeks, who have better armored men. Armored hoplites are one of the best units in the game, and available early and untill then hoplites are more than decent too and will win from levy pikemen 1 on 1, and might even win from phalanx pikemen.
Macedon's infantry is indeed sub-par as compared to the Greeks; however, Greece's cavalry is rather lacking, which is a major problem, and can be used to Macedon's advantage.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 14 August 2012 03:00 EDT (US)     9 / 28       
I am a cavalry-type general: give me some good cav and the battle is won. I tried Thrace once- I won, but it was bloody. It was not until I remembered the sarmation mercs and began buying them in quantity that my victories returned to their normal levels of little blood lost on my side/enemy eradicated on their side.

Macedon was probably the easiest set of campaigns I ever played, and the only ones in which I managed to wipe out the Romans in time to prevent the Marian Reforms. The Macedonian infantry is just good enough to hold the line pinned down long enough for the Light Lancers to cycle-charge the opponents into dogmeat. Later formations can do better than just hold the line, but in the beginning, that is all that is needed. The archers are nothing special, but available, and of course they have artillery.

But the cavalry shines! I almost never use Companion cavalry- I find the Macedonian Cavalry to be excellent- hardhitting, durable, tier-four, and most of all- takes only 1 season to recruit. I typically use six to eight of these per army, the rest being Phalanx Pikemen and a few archers. Opponents are hammered and run over, and often only the archers will get a few kills in but the pikemen hardly draw blood at all- the rest of the foe was killed by cavalry.

Gods how I loved ruling Macedon!

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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 14 August 2012 03:26 EDT (US)     10 / 28       
The archers are nothing special, but available, and of course they have artillery.
But Macedon is near Crete.....

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
AKBK
Legionary
posted 14 August 2012 22:07 EDT (US)     11 / 28       
Macedon was actually the first faction I beat the campaign with outside of the Roman factions. Unlike many other factions which rely on a quick initial onslaught to solidify themselves, the places you need to strike fast don't have a high culture penalty. Plus you have the statue of Zeus and +4 loyalty to begin with, allowing you to move from one city to the next faster than other factions. Especially if these factors mean you don't have to slaughter the population, then you have one of the best economic bases in the game, and quick access to the troops you need. Proximity to Rome can be a benefit as well, because you can stop the Brutii (and sometimes the Julii) from expanding too quickly and becoming a juggernaut.

Ditto everything said about the unit selection; Iím not a great military tactician, so their wall-of-spears anvil and fast-powerful-cavalry hammer is a super simple and effective way to win battles.

[This message has been edited by AKBK (edited 08-14-2012 @ 10:08 PM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 15 August 2012 13:24 EDT (US)     12 / 28       
Welcome to our forums, AKBK!

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
MusCypricus
Legionary
posted 18 August 2012 06:36 EDT (US)     13 / 28       
What about Mundus Magnus?

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 08-18-2012 @ 12:11 PM).]

ShieldWall
Legionary
posted 18 August 2012 12:44 EDT (US)     14 / 28       
Mundus Magnus? Getting deja vu here! There's not a great deal of difference in terms of the land layout, though Macedon start with two island cities which need minimal defence - handy for the economy. There's more breathing room between Macedon and Thrace and Dacia, they've never been a problem for me, but Greece is still on the doorstep (with Athens under its control). The Brutii AI seems a bit weak on MM though, so they're not as much of a threat. Macedon starts with a lot of different units, some Royal Pikemen are in there and instead of militia hoplites they have an awful lot of levy's to start the game with. On the whole I'd say the situation for Macedon is not much different.
SongsOfBeitar
Legionary
posted 20 August 2012 09:39 EDT (US)     15 / 28       
But Macedon is near Crete.....
Cretian Archers are the best!
I once messed up my entire battle strategy and cretian archers were the only thing that saved me from total defeat (only an average victory though...)

I would also like to stress how much I hate enemy Chariot archers (and chariots in general).
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 20 August 2012 15:22 EDT (US)     16 / 28       
Phalanx armies combined with cretans should have little to fear from chariots.
sariur
Legionary
posted 21 August 2012 13:34 EDT (US)     17 / 28       
The Macedonian army was one of the finest in the world, the macedonians simply lacked manpower when they went to war with the romans, (so many thousands of people had gone east). I personaly consider them to be one of my favorite factions in RTW, includng the Seleucids, and Ptolemaic Egypt.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to defeat the roman style of warfare with falanxes, while having the problem of too litle manpower. For me the biggest problem was in the fact that the romans are four factions, I was in war with both the butii in Greece and the juli in Illyria. Too few men, as I said, but macedon wass still a considerable power to be reconed with.
SongsOfBeitar
Legionary
posted 21 August 2012 14:42 EDT (US)     18 / 28       
I personally prefer killing phalanxes than commanding them.
Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)
posted 21 August 2012 16:58 EDT (US)     19 / 28       
Does anyone have any ideas on how to defeat the roman style of warfare with falanxes, while having the problem of too litle manpower.
There are a couple dubious ways to get the better of your roman enemies. The first one is when in a battle, deploy all your phalanxs into a 2 sided box formation with the other two sides the end of deployment line. The other is during a seige of your towns, place a phalanx right behind the gate. Their spears will go through the gate and skewer people on the other side and if they manage to open the gate, steadily reinforce it to maintain your killing bottle neck.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 21 August 2012 17:25 EDT (US)     20 / 28       
I just continued my macedon campaign.

I started at the point where I was fighting the julii around mediolanum, fighting Pontus at mazaka, fighting Dacia at their starting towns and I had already taken Carthage, so only Roman left was Julii, who have almost finished the Gauls.

I took mediolanum and Patavium without too much trouble, but sadly Patavium had just gotten the imperial palace, so I'm facing cohorts from now on.

I have just finished the people of Pontus and with that own everything up to Antioch and Armenia.

I kept training new armies in Greece (with armor upgrades and 3 exp) and sailing them east. One took Salamis and than moved to Antioch and Sidon. This front is reinforced by the army that took Tarsus.

Another army lands at Alexandria where massive Egyptian armies await, I hope I can defeat them and take the city, so I can retrain.

And another army has taken Cyrene, while another army is heading for Alexandria too. (money isn't really an issue anymore)

I haven't advanced into Africa yet, since my army isn't really suited yet for fighting the Numidians.

I have advanced into Gaul, taking Massilia and defeated a few armies using the bridges there. Then I fought a huge battle over Narbo, but after a heroic victory the game crashed when I clicked exterminate city button (Not the first time the game crashed at such a point ).



About the question how to deal with Romans:

Their infantry/cavalry will try to flank you, so make it harder for them by either deploying like this:
__
/ \ or in a bow shape )

. Put archers behind the phalanx and cavalry behind your flanks. I also used three catapults behind my phalanx in my conquest of Italy.

The Julii so far had mostly armies with lack of cavalry, so I let the enemy crush itself upon my phalanx, took out their skirmishers/archers with my archers and a cavalry flank attack and then ran down all routers.

This will mean that usually most casualties you take come from their pila attack and from the velites. You can't charge them with phalanx, and your cavalry can't simply rout an entire line of Roman infantry, so these losses are hardly avoidable (usually between 10-30 men per phalanx unit).

Now they have some legionary units, it will get tougher.


Spain has taken all of Spain plus baleares.
Numidia has all of north-west africa except carthage, which I hold and Lepcis Magna where the Carthaginians have their last city (constantly under siege).

Parthia rules most of the east (also has some territory from armenia), egypt rules the south-east of the map, but I'll soon reduce that a lot.

Scythia has all the steppe except Pripet and locus gepidae

germans are down to 3 towns due to britons.





So yes, I can fight as Macedon (h/h), but I never liked phalanx warfare, especially when commmanding them myself. I found the Gaul swap far more enjoyable than this campaign, though this one is perhaps easier, due to great economy (100k +).
Alex_the_Bold
Legionary
posted 21 August 2012 17:33 EDT (US)     21 / 28       
I totally disagree about Macedonian starting armies. In fact, Macedon, along with Parthia and Armenia is a faction which has 2 heavy cav units available (Macedonian cav).

Invincibility lies in defence, while the possibility of victory in the attack -Sun Tzu
Akouson me, pataxon de (hit me, but first listen to me)-Themistocles to Euribiadis prior to the battle of Salamis.
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 21 August 2012 18:03 EDT (US)     22 / 28       
I personally find Macedon to be one of the easiest factions to play, after perhaps the Romans and Seleucids. They have good pikemen (which, if used effectively, are essentially unbeatable), excellent cavalry, and access to the Aegean basin, including Rhodes. This makes for a faction with a well varied military and robust economy, even if it has to contend with several enemies from the beginning. I'm currently playing a Macedonian campaign, and my only issue is that the Romans won't build a huge city and cause the Marian Reforms for me.
I hope I can defeat them and take the city, so I can retrain.
I recommend bringing along a few extra of each troop, so you can use them to repair your main army.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 21 August 2012 18:43 EDT (US)     23 / 28       
I recommend bringing along a few extra of each troop, so you can use them to repair your main army.
yeah I know. Problem is that the troops needed to come from Greece and Crete, and one fleet was going to Cyrene, another was busy near Antioch, so I had only one big enough fleet ready to get them across. And like I said, a 2nd army is on it's way, I think it is now sailing near Crete.
SongsOfBeitar
Legionary
posted 21 August 2012 23:17 EDT (US)     24 / 28       
I personally find Macedon to be one of the easiest factions to play, after perhaps the Romans and Seleucids.
Really? I enjoyed playing as seleucids because of the challenge but I was trying to hold back armies on three fronts with just militia hopolites because my economy couldn't produce anything else.
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 21 August 2012 23:20 EDT (US)     25 / 28       
But militia hoplites are probably the best first tier unit in the game. With 9 of them, a family member, and maybe a few cavalry, you can hold just about anything .

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 22 August 2012 01:36 EDT (US)     26 / 28       
I use upgraded and experienced (silver chevrons) militia hoplites as my reserve foot cavalry. These are the bastards that hang out behind the main line looking scared or innocent, until they are needed to crush a flanking maneuver or perform one themselves. Then I turn them loose and laugh my butt off as they chase (insert much better and more expensive tier-three unit here) across the field.

For their price, they are excellent shock troops when used and equipped properly.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 08-22-2012 @ 10:01 AM).]

Baalite
Legionary
posted 22 August 2012 01:43 EDT (US)     27 / 28       
I generally deploy my phalanx (if i have enough units) in a /\____/\ formation (can pin the enemy in and prevent flanking), and then smash into the back with cavalry. Romans die easily, they're just so damn persistent. Macedon is one of the coolest factions, and I like their logo too

Ask the experienced rather than the learned.
We will either find a way, or make one - Hannibal Barca
Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face death, there is nothing they may not achieve.
- Sun Tzu

You can get more with a gun and a kind word than you can with just a kind word- Al Capone
SongsOfBeitar
Legionary
posted 22 August 2012 08:37 EDT (US)     28 / 28       
@Terikel Wow, that is awfully sneaky.
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