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Total War Heaven » Forums » Rome Multiplayer Discussion » Money problem
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Topic Subject:Money problem
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 08 August 2011 00:43 EDT (US)         
Am I the only one who thinks it's stupid that Thrace, Dacia, Germania, and Gaul have such expensive units? How is that even remotely fair? I know it's way too late for whoever is in charge to change it, but because their armies are primarily shirtless AND expensive, it's nearly impossible to win online with them.
AuthorReplies:
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 09 August 2011 03:40 EDT (US)     1 / 19       
Perhaps then you need to adjust your playing style...

Barbarians tend to do fairly well in low-money battles, as they tend to have a good range of troops which cost less than 500dn/unit.

Thrace and Dacia I'll admit are tricky. Dacia has a very well-balanced roster - but nothing exceptional in it. Thrace has a fairly crap roster, the only units that can match your likely opponents being bastarnae and phalanx pikes. When I play as Thrace online (effectively never unless I'm drunk or suicidal), I usually take 15 units of pikes and 5 of bastarnae.

Gaul and Germania are a different story though! Gaul has the redeeming feature of (ahistorically) the best archers in the game to support its fairly good infantry (no match for pikes or urbans) and mediocre heavy cavalry. I tend to ignore their infantry altogether and just take ten nobles and ten foresters online - rules and cash permitting.

Germania has zerks, gothic cavalry, chosen archers, and disproportionately brilliant phalanx spearmen. Use 'em. 'Nuff said.

EDORIX
~ ancient briton ~

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(dis ma house)
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 09 August 2011 19:01 EDT (US)     2 / 19       
It's true. Foresters are awesome.

The Germans(And thrace) have some very good troops, with phalanxes, axemen and pretty good cavalry. If you get some screeching women behind the line then that will keep morale up.

The Barbarians have some of the best cheap troops available. If you get many spear warbands, a couple of archers(Preferably Foresters) and make sure you have cavalry superiority. The warbands can hold a line while your cavalry charges them from the rear. Archers can deal with anything that might hurt your cavalry, like the enemy cavalry.

Or, like Edorix said, forget spears and just get Foresters. Very hard to catch if you put in skirmish mode, and only a foolish opponent will charge them with his cavalry, as they carry spears. Then shoot down as many enemy as you can before setting them to melee and using hammer and anvil.
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 09 August 2011 20:06 EDT (US)     3 / 19       
Perhaps then you need to adjust your playing style...

Barbarians tend to do fairly well in low-money battles, as they tend to have a good range of troops which cost less than 500dn/unit.
I play almost exclusively low-money battles, and I haven't been able to get it to work

Yes, their units are under 500, but that gives them no advantage over other factions.

For comparison:

Hoplites: 440
Libyan Spearmen: 400
Poeni Infantry: 540
Phalanx Pikemen: 580
Hastati: 440
Principes: 460
Triarii: 500

Most of the armored infantry that you encounter in a low money battle are between 400 and 600 denari apiece. Barbarian units have similar or inferior stats and no armor, but fall within the same price range.

The cavalry and archers is the main problem, though.

Germanic Archers and Forester Warbands cost several times the price of /Carthaginian/Greek/Roman/Egyptian archers. The Foresters are good, but are they really nearly twice as valuable as Cretans? Barbarian cavalry mercs (for Britannia) cost quite a bit more than comparable /Carthaginian/Roman/Greek/Egyptian cavalry units as well.

Because of the discrepancy in the cost of archers and cavalry, all of those factions can field larger, more versatile armies for low money than Barbarians can, at least in my experience.
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 10 August 2011 04:22 EDT (US)     4 / 19       
But even in low money batles I have rarely seen my opponent get cheaper units, like principes. Most just get a smaller army of cohorts.

Plus them that you mentioned have quite bad morale. Excluding maybe principes, triarii, and kinda hoplites.

Yes, they are well worth double the price(If they really are that expensive). It is like 2 units in 1, so it actually works out cheaper. Once the actual fighting has started most archers stand idle, otherwise friendly fire is a problem. But Foresters are very good archers, to match cretans, and can be added to the melee infantry when the fighting starts.

How much is a low-money battle? Just so I can think up a good mix of units for that price that will beat other factions.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 10 August 2011 06:08 EDT (US)     5 / 19       
Barbarian cavalry mercs (for Britannia) cost quite a bit more than comparable /Carthaginian/Roman/Greek/Egyptian cavalry units as well.
Oh, if the Britons are your problem, they won't be for long. If you have a 10k battle, get 20 light chariots. Or 10 light chariots, 5 heavy chariots and 5 head hurlers. With a bit of practise using them, nothing can stand in your way. If it's a 5k battle, 1 heavy chariots, 2 head hurlers, 7 light chariots, and whatever upgrades fit. Most MP armies won't withstand that.

For the Gauls: on 10k, you can't really max out on foresters so well... however, you do have fairly cheap heavy cavalry and good cheap swordsmen. Use them: eg 7 nobles and 12 swordsmen or something. Swordsmen are pretty damn tough: good morale, good stamina, attack 10, defence 12, charge 4, and most importantly, warcry! They will tear through principes with ease. If you are up against a phalanx faction, you will have to invest in a few foresters, and I would go for more aggressive infantry too - 4 nobles (600), 4 foresters (960), 6 naked fanatics (430), and you might have enough left for a skirmisher warband or two. Against cavalry factions, swap all those swordsmen for warbands and a few foresters. On 5k, basically halve all the unit numbers and add one more infantry unit at the expense of whatever.

I much prefer the gauls to the Britons as a faction, to be honest. Their roster is far more interesting and flexible.

EDORIX
~ ancient briton ~

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(dis ma house)

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 08-10-2011 @ 06:10 AM).]

General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 10 August 2011 06:17 EDT (US)     6 / 19       
But Foresters are very good archers, to match cretans, and can be added to the melee infantry when the fighting starts.
Actually, they're better than Cretans: they have melee attack 11, missile attack 11, and defense 7 (3 of which is armour) base, while Cretans have melee attack 6, missile attack 11, and defense 4 (none of which is armour). And they only cost 210 denarii more. Add to that they have better morale and can hide anywhere and you've got a superior unit.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 10 August 2011 12:13 EDT (US)     7 / 19       
Thanks for the discussion, guys!

Edorix, I like your ideas because Briton does have cheap chariots, but most of the people I play with don't want you to choose that many chariots. Besides, light chariots are weak against an archer/cheap cavalry combo... archers to make them use cantabrian and light cavalry to run them down when they're very tired.

Liam, it is true that very few MP battles involve Hastati or Principes, but a cohort is well worth the extra money and more than able to hold its own against multiple barbarian units. Also, because Barbarian units have no armor, they fall prey to archers (which, in my experience, have a big impact on multiplayer battles). And foresters cost 960, while cretans are 550 and regular archers are 190. It is not worth it in my opinion... three units of round shield or greek cavalry (330 each) can decimate a unit of foresters, and they cost the same price. I host a lot of $4k battles and no one EVER picks Barbarians because they can't beat phalanxes or horse archers.

Sajaru, unless I'm mistaken, Foresters are 960 while Cretans cost 550. Their arching abilities are similar, and they are most effectively used as archers, not melee warriors. I think two units of Cretans will yield far greater results than a unit of Foresters... I also think 4 units of regular archers (190 each) will yield similar or better results as one unit of Foresters. Also, Gauls are unable to combine foresters with cheaper archers, so investing in archers ties up a ton of money.

Now, not to sound like a noob, but I have a few questions. Is there an accuracy rating in this game? Like, are Foresters and Cretans actually more accurate than regular archers? (Yes, I already know about the 170/120 range difference)

Also, Edorix, is warcry really worth the trouble? I use it but I'm not sure if it's a +1 bonus or more than that. Do you know how much it actually helps? And how are fanatics "more aggressive" than swordsmen? I'm not sure I understand that.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas all and I'll try to incorporate them, because I do love Barbarian factions, I just haven't been able to win with them.
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 10 August 2011 12:37 EDT (US)     8 / 19       
greek cavalry (330 each) can decimate a unit of foresters
Maybe. What you have to remember is they may be archers, but are warbands nvertheless, and only a foolish man would send horses running straight into spears.
Liam, it is true that very few MP battles involve Hastati or Principes, but a cohort is well worth the extra money and more than able to hold its own against multiple barbarian units
That is why you only use the infantry to keep the line while your cavalry run and attack their rear, usually routing instantly. Use a few forsters/any archers to destroy as much enemy cavalry as you can, and make sure your horsies will win Vs the enemy horsies.

For example I used Edorix' Blitz tactic a few days ago against GeneralScruff, and won easily. It was a 10k battle, he had phalanxes and a very large army.

Well, I am not sure about accuracy in RTW. I think it is mainly damage. Although I guess better archers are more likely to hit moving targets, etc.

I am not sure what warcry does, but it says somewhere that it gives more than +5 attack for 30 seconds or something, but I am not sure if that is true and have no sources.

Would you like to play some multiplayer battles some day? I could try to show you if I can win against you using a barbarian faction.
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 10 August 2011 12:55 EDT (US)     9 / 19       
I'm a terrible multiplayer general still haha... I'm confident you could beat me regardless of what faction we use.

It would be interesting, though, to play a 5k battle, Carthage vs Gaul. When would be a good time? :P
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 10 August 2011 12:59 EDT (US)     10 / 19       
Anytime. Now?

My name is {RTWH}Liam_the_Spartan. I am not very good either.
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 10 August 2011 13:06 EDT (US)     11 / 19       
Okay, now sounds great. I'm PraeQuae and I guess you can just host a game in the "Competitive" lobby, would that work?
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 10 August 2011 13:15 EDT (US)     12 / 19       
I am not sure what warcry does, but it says somewhere that it gives more than +5 attack for 30 seconds or something, but I am not sure if that is true and have no sources.
If I'm not too late, warcry gives +7 attack and +7 morale for 30s iirc.

EDORIX
~ ancient briton ~

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(dis ma house)
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 10 August 2011 13:21 EDT (US)     13 / 19       
Oh, I had no idea it was that powerful
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 10 August 2011 13:22 EDT (US)     14 / 19       
I went on and you were there but now you have disappeared...?

I am on it ow anyway. Friendly lobby. Will just create a game called "PraeQuae Join"
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 10 August 2011 13:31 EDT (US)     15 / 19       
Liam :/ it isn't working for some reason... sorry!

I'm quitting out and coming back in.
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 10 August 2011 13:33 EDT (US)     16 / 19       
Do you want to host? If you make a password make it RTWH
PraeQuae
Legionary
posted 10 August 2011 13:35 EDT (US)     17 / 19       
Okay!

And idk... if we can't get it to work there's always tomorrow or something. My computer is spazzing out and I'm not exactly optimistic.
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 10 August 2011 15:26 EDT (US)     18 / 19       
Sajaru, unless I'm mistaken, Foresters are 960 while Cretans cost 550.
I don't play multiplayer at all, so I don't know how much they cost there, but in the normal game and in custom battles, Cretans cost 750 denarii.
Their arching abilities are similar, and they are most effectively used as archers, not melee warriors. I think two units of Cretans will yield far greater results than a unit of Foresters... I also think 4 units of regular archers (190 each) will yield similar or better results as one unit of Foresters.
While they have the same missile attack, the Foresters have 3 points of armour while the Cretans have 0, which makes a huge difference when it comes to missile duels. I once used Foresters vs. Pharaoh's Bowmen (they've got 7 points of armour), and the Pharaoh's totally slaughtered the Foresters because of their better armour, even though they have less attack then the Foresters.

As for regular archers vs. Foresters, while four units would have a greater weight of fire than one Forester, the Forester would out range them (and once again have better armour) so a lot would die before they could return fire.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 10 August 2011 15:55 EDT (US)     19 / 19       
Sajaru, unless I'm mistaken, Foresters are 960 while Cretans cost 550.
I don't play multiplayer at all, so I don't know how much they cost there, but in the normal game and in custom battles, Cretans cost 750 denarii.
According to the EDU, Cretans cost 550 - however, being mercenaries, in campaign their cost is indeed 750. So you're both right.

EDORIX
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
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