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Topic Subject:Faction Discussion - Hebrews
SrJamesTyrrel
Legionary
posted 11 September 2008 13:32 EDT (US)         


The Hebrews represent the people of Moses, who fled Egypt and attempt to settle in Canaan.

PRE-IRON :
These are a desert people, wanderers and nomads. They survive on faith alone, relying greatly on the skill of their leaders and the believe in providence.

A skirmishing army composed primarily of light missiles, light spearmen, and small numbers of fast shock infantry armed with swords.

Core:

  • Hebrew Skirmishers - Men armed with more, better javelins.
    Skirmishers are more proper soldiers intent on attacking an enemy who is too slow or distracted to retaliate. They form a supplementary role to real infantry, wearing the enemy before the clash and surrounding/pusuing after.
  • Hebrew Infantry - Men armed with spears and square shields.
    Hebrew Infantry are notoriously poor soldiers as armies go, and are meant to protect lighter units or hold the enemy until better men can finish the fight. They fight defensively and are quick to rout if pressed.
  • Hebrew Zealots - Men armed with the Kopesh
    Zealots are lightly-armored shock-infantry, exceedingly fast for their strength and capable of delivering hard, armor-piercing blows. Although they are few in number, the body of the army needs but one hand to strike, and they are often the decisive players in an engagement.
  • Hebrew Veteran Spears - Armored spearmen with larger shields
    These men are more experienced, better equipped, and fight in closer drills, providing a much stronger anvil.
  • Hebrew Chosen Zealots - Armored swordsmen.
    These men are tasked by God to be the most daring, even foolhardy men, but this faith makes them strong, fast, an nigh-unbreakable. They are fleet of foot, quick of hand, and clear of mind, often causing enemy units to rout by the glory or God made visible by their cold resolution.
  • Hebrew Shepherds - light, skilled slingers
    Recruited from the youth of the tribe, these are not proper infantry, but remain excellent missile units, capable of delivering deadly stones over long distances. Their morale is less than mentionable so they must be kept out of harm's way, but the punches they throw when properly protected make them more than worth their cost.

    Supplementary:

  • Exodites - Men armed with javelins and small spears.
    exodites are large, cheap, weak units used primarily for bringing populations from the desert to the towns of canaan. If possible, these men could have "extras" - mules or donkeys - to make them even more awkward in battle.
  • Benjaminite Slingers - Men with slings and light armor.
    Unlike the typical shepherd boys, the Tribe of Benjamin produces proper soldiers as slingers. They are better armored than shepherds and more prepared for combat, but cost significantly more, and are fewer, making them perhaps equal overall.

    More to come....

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 09-13-2008 @ 12:00 PM).]

  • AuthorReplies:
    Andalus
    Legionary
    posted 15 September 2008 08:33 EDT (US)     1 / 30       
    To continue the other discussion:
    one thing that would need to change about your guy is that he needs a short-sleeve skirted base, right now he's got those creepy "skin-sleeves" :P
    Like I say, it was just rough. The leg greaves are like that too. Similarly with using the Cappadocian Cavalry model (The first one), the helmet plume would need to be removed, as it leaves traces.
    part of this process is that we'll end up making a lot of units that don't fit, or we'll have ideas that conflict like here, methinks that this is the best way to create new units, officers, rebels, and easter eggs
    I agree. I would suggest using these for two different units. For instance, the Cappadocians could be used for Veteran Spearmen, and the Desert Infantry for Custodians.

    Edit: Seems you've already done Veteran Spearmen. Perhaps the guard for Ark of the Covenant?
    choices will be diplomatic, so outside opinions would help.
    Try making an 'Opinions' thread for occasions like this.

    [This message has been edited by Andalus (edited 09-15-2008 @ 08:41 AM).]

    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 15 September 2008 09:50 EDT (US)     2 / 30       
    heh...thought i had moved the pictures and things here but i guess i forgot to confirm the post or something...

    I was thinking that to save time the veteran spears would be a direct (texture) upgrade from the regular spears, which is why i put the .cas in green. it can easily be changed to another .cas i suppose, as the fact of the matter is that the general shape does very little compared to the texture file.

    The one thing that gets me about your guys in terms of a custodian unit is that they don't feel very hebrew to me (personally). I see a lot a lot of syrian type in them and not so much israel. Perhaps some sort of Allied Elite Spearmen for the mesopotamian factions?

    Here's a better image of the red-cloaked guys, actually in a group:

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 09-15-2008 @ 11:19 PM).]

    Leo IV
    Legionary
    (id: leonadas_IV)
    posted 16 September 2008 23:18 EDT (US)     3 / 30       
    as traits for the hebrews you could give each family member a tribe wich gives bonuses and faults.

    LEO IV
    Pugna Concusio ~ Fight the Oppression
    Army Commander
    PrivateClark
    Legionary
    posted 17 September 2008 21:45 EDT (US)     4 / 30       
    SubRosa
    Legionary
    posted 17 September 2008 22:03 EDT (US)     5 / 30       
    Might want to give them faces too. Unless they are supposed to look like evil, menacing, henchmen of a Dark Lord bent upon destroying the world.
    Cordyceps
    Naphal
    (id: ArchDruid)
    posted 18 September 2008 00:31 EDT (US)     6 / 30       
    as traits for the hebrews you could give each family member a tribe wich gives bonuses and faults.
    This would be a really nice touch I think - you could do it similarly to how BB&B did their bloodlines for M2TW. For adopted family and such you could just have it randomly apply one of them too.

    Also I was wondering if you've considered some sort of assassin unit, like the.... Ergh. I've forgotten their names... The Roman unit in all black. Something sneaky and deadly but relatively hard to produce? The Sicarii were Jewish iirc, and they were reasonably successful.

    Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
    Wolfpanzee
    Legionary
    posted 18 September 2008 11:46 EDT (US)     7 / 30       
    Wheren't the Sicarii much later, during roman times? That said, you could still include them...
    Are you thinking of the Arcani Mummolus?

    The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his-George Patton
    You can get a lot more with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone-Al Capone
    Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo-H.G. Wells
    Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity-Karl Marx
    Cordyceps
    Naphal
    (id: ArchDruid)
    posted 18 September 2008 15:47 EDT (US)     8 / 30       
    The Arcani were indeed the ones I was thinking of.

    The Sicarii were later, yes, but things like them don't tend to develop without some sort of foundation going back a while. Also I noticed the Zealots on the list, and they date from the same time period as the Sicarii - the groups were closely related (the Zealots were the group from which we get the term 'zealous' and 'zealots', obviously).

    Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
    Andalus
    Legionary
    posted 18 September 2008 15:52 EDT (US)     9 / 30       
    We did discuss implementing Sicarii before. I can't remember what the outcome was.

    The desert infantry model could possibly be used for Sicarii, with some tweaks.
    I see a lot a lot of syrian type in them and not so much israel
    Hmm, I see your point there. They are a bit Syrian-esque.
    Perhaps some sort of Allied Elite Spearmen for the mesopotamian factions?
    Or something like that, certainly. If the model can be used for something, then why waste an opportunity?

    The other thing I wanted to discus was the Ark of the Covenant. Presumably this will work like a legionary eagle? And won't be retrainable if lost?

    If you also add it for other factions (But use attribute: no_custom), then they would be able to bribe it, representing how the Philistines captured it.

    [This message has been edited by Andalus (edited 09-18-2008 @ 04:14 PM).]

    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 18 September 2008 19:04 EDT (US)     10 / 30       
    There's a bit of this discussion before about the sicarii, and my stance remains :

    The best way to pursue this is to have largely realistic unit STATS, with visual and textual emphasis on RECOGNITION and INTEREST over pin-point accuracy.

    this is largely for the reason that so little information is readily available to us when it comes to accuracy anyway, but also because the average enthusiast has shown himself to be only partially concerned with the nit-pickies. Those who are, on the other hand, tend to be very vocal, assertive, etc., but hardly enthusiasts, and I see little profit in attempting to please those determined to be "no fun."

    That out of the way, my thoughts condensed on units:

    Custodians (temple guard) have marginal historicity at best, BUT they clearly represent (from the name alone) a "formal" (elite) sort of "protective" (spear and shield) unit. It also provides a name for what would still exist otherwise (only being called something like "better spearmen!") so I support this unit.

    Sicarii are anachronistic BUT well-known and badass. Unfortunately I think that an arcani-unit on the battlefield is not particularly "fun," nor would it properly reflect hte makeup of period armies in the way an elite spear unit would, so my vote for these is for them to be consigned to spy/assassin status. Perhaps, if it can be done, the jewish ones could get a "sicarii" trait as an easter egg to increase their base stats.

    Zealot as a word has passed into common usage and is connected with Judaism, so while it technically refers to an anachronistic unit, i doubt that will be an issue. Not to mention the fact that the name is being assigned to, yet again, a needed unit that would otherwise be called "kopesh infantry."

    I'm still torn on what i was hoping the ark to be. ideally it would be a unit that would be hard to destroy and slow, with significant morale bonuses (to the point where i would want to say that units seldom or never broke when it was present) that could, yes, be lost (to great detriment) if the battle went south.

    I was toying with the idea of "magic" but i think that's a bit much. Good artillery from it would be too useful...then i thought of having good artillery that has literally no accuracy (so it just creates a storm of judgement capable of hitting anything from enemies to friends to trees and dirt) but decided that was too....magical.

    In the same way i'm wondering whether hornblowers should be be "drudis" or whether I could also give them grossly inaccurate only-against-building invisible artillery so that they could at say, jericho, blow their trumpets for a few minutes and see (random) buildings collapse.

    If we went this magic rout, they could be horde units to represent the fact that they were only used in entering canaan. otherwise jsut have them a neet side-unit to help morale.

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 09-18-2008 @ 07:07 PM).]

    Andalus
    Legionary
    posted 20 September 2008 18:27 EDT (US)     11 / 30       
    Concerning the 'magic' aspect, my personal instinct would be to go against it, but it really does depend what is being aimed for.

    After all, the Bible speaks of huge floods, plagues, earthquakes, etc. so if that is to be represented, some kind of miraculous feature would need to be added. But if you want to limit the effect of God to make the game more playable and not just a pre-determined Sunday School lesson, then not so much.

    The best option, as is usually the case, is probably somewhere in between.
    I see little profit in attempting to please those determined to be "no fun."
    So let's have fun!
    Perhaps, if it can be done, the jewish ones could get a "sicarii" trait as an easter egg to increase their base stats.
    I believe that can be done. Either use 'ExcludeCultures [culturename]' or the trigger 'and FactionType [factionname]'
    I'm still torn on what i was hoping the ark to be. ideally it would be a unit that would be hard to destroy and slow, with significant morale bonuses (to the point where i would want to say that units seldom or never broke when it was present) that could, yes, be lost (to great detriment) if the battle went south.
    Regarding 'to great detriment' you could give the Hebrew units very low morale except for the best ones (E.g Custodians), and even theirs would not be spectacular. However, the Ark and Hornblowers give large enough bonuses to raise the morale to high levels. So if these units were lost/not present, the Hebrews would struggle.

    This represents how their military was not particularly strong, and their victory was 'heaven-sent'. Their faith inspires them to fight well, but if it is lost, they are punished with defeat by God.

    If that makes sense.


    Also, do you want me to email you those Custodian skins, just so you have them?
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 21 September 2008 11:34 EDT (US)     12 / 30       
    well spoken andalus, i tihnk i agree on every point .

    as for email, you can, it would be great to have (although photoshop still won't open, i've been doing all of this in paint for the last 2 weeks) but i'm still thinking of how to have a more permanent and convenient sharing method.
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 22 September 2008 00:32 EDT (US)     13 / 30       
    After doing those quick sketches in subrosa's thread, i realized that these chubby characters were a great way to show a design quickly. So, without further ado, here is much of the design work for the hebrew pre-iron army:



    javelin, hebrew infantry, veteran spears, blank
    javelin, shepherds, benjaminite slingers, blank
    zealots, chosen zealots, zealot bodyguard, early hero
    blank, assyrian archer (not for hebrews), custodian, hornblower

    what do you think both of the costumes and this method of mocking them together? i think this should work out well because it's easy even for non-artists to draw over if they have suggestions that are hard to write.
    SubRosa
    Legionary
    posted 22 September 2008 12:26 EDT (US)     14 / 30       
    but i'm still thinking of how to have a more permanent and convenient sharing method
    The ideal method would be a network share drive. But that is not going to work under the circumstances. However, a website where everyone on the team could ftp things to would serve the same purpose. However, you would need a lot of storage on the server.
    i think this should work out well because it's easy even for non-artists to draw over if they have suggestions that are hard to write.
    Speaking as one non-artist, there is nothing easy about drawing over even those.
    Lone Scotsguard
    Legionary
    posted 25 September 2008 00:39 EDT (US)     15 / 30       
    Hebrews?
    Maybe some special siege units like " The Ark of Covenant "
    Boosting morales and can be used in siege battle to knock down few wall section at once, and can generate lighting bolts.
    Of course the reloading time must be longer than any artillery.

    And also the Merkava ( war chariots ) units would be good addition.

    I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing, Roman Cavalry choirs are singing, be my mirrors my swords my shield, my missionaries on foreign fields
    For some reason i can't explain, i know saint Peter won't call my name
    Never an honest world, but that was when i rule the world
    Andalus
    Legionary
    posted 27 September 2008 09:21 EDT (US)     16 / 30       
    SrJames, did you get my email?
    Wolfpanzee
    Legionary
    posted 28 September 2008 14:51 EDT (US)     17 / 30       
    And also the Merkava ( war chariots ) units would be good addition.
    Indeed. Just make sure you don't accidentally mix it up with the tank, or the game will be just a bit unbalanced...

    The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his-George Patton
    You can get a lot more with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone-Al Capone
    Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo-H.G. Wells
    Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity-Karl Marx
    Lone Scotsguard
    Legionary
    posted 01 October 2008 03:00 EDT (US)     18 / 30       
    Of course not Wolf, war charriots are often used in that era.
    I think the 'Hasmonean Bodyguards' would be good heavy infantry units for the hebrews on the later era.
    As with the Josephus accounts in Bellum Judaicum, i think Sicarii units suits well to the ranks of assassins.
    And to fit well with the historical aspect, maybe The Essenes Guild would be good addition to make the Hebrews Priests gain the ability of 'magics'.
    I think advanced priest trained in the Essenes guild should be able to walk on water and to cure plaque in cities and maybe some special traits like 'raising the nobles from the deaths'?

    I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing, Roman Cavalry choirs are singing, be my mirrors my swords my shield, my missionaries on foreign fields
    For some reason i can't explain, i know saint Peter won't call my name
    Never an honest world, but that was when i rule the world
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 01 October 2008 07:43 EDT (US)     19 / 30       
    Hm.....now this discussion is making me wish i had kept my mouth shut. I would love to hear what other people think, but I don't frankly want this to turn into a mod about magic and maccabees.

    The suggestions, while interesting, really me want to make me say that there is nothing but morale bonuses granted by these items. They also make me want to say that, aside from zealot which is now a blanket term, very few references will be made to the later revolutions because it's really outside the realm of judges.

    As for Merkabah, I've never found a source referencing them as anything other than the throne-vehicle of god or the tank named for it. Hebrew chariots, like other canaanite/levantine models, aren't really the same role as a main battle tank either, i.e. sending them straight into a charge would probably result in disaster, so it's probably best to leave the name by the wayside.

    Thank you all for your interest, though .

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 10-01-2008 @ 07:50 AM).]

    Lone Scotsguard
    Legionary
    posted 03 October 2008 08:47 EDT (US)     20 / 30       
    Thanks for the positive response
    Im sorry if my ideas makes you wanna shut ur mouth, but its only ideas.
    There will be strange to play games from Total War Series with Judean theme without war charriots.
    Since the days of the Judges until the conquest of Alexander, war charriots has been the most elite units in ancient Egypts, Judea and all known military power in that regions.

    I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing, Roman Cavalry choirs are singing, be my mirrors my swords my shield, my missionaries on foreign fields
    For some reason i can't explain, i know saint Peter won't call my name
    Never an honest world, but that was when i rule the world
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 03 October 2008 16:45 EDT (US)     21 / 30       
    we have war chariots, and for the Israelites they first appear in Kings, not Judges . the only thing is that I don't think we should call them "Merkabah" because I've yet to see them called that. AFAIK merkabah is specifically the throne of God and not a worldly chariot.

    Here's the current (updated) roster from the work thread :

    Hebrew Core Army List Early
  • Hebrew Skirmishers
  • Hebrew Shepherds
  • Hebrew Infantry
  • Veteran Spears
  • Hebrew Zealots
  • Chosen Zealots
  • Hornblowers

    Hebrew Army List Late Additions
  • Israelite Militia
  • Israelite Archers
  • Israelite Infantry
  • Custodians
  • Israelite Swordsmen
  • Gibborim
  • Israelite Chariots

    Hebrew Army List Special Units
  • Lesser Hero
  • Named Hero
  • Zealot Bodyguard
  • Gibborim Bodyguard
  • Ark of the Covenant
  • Exodites
  • Benjaminite Slingers

    Probably my fault for not posting this list here earlier, it's been around for a few weeks actually.
  • Yitzkshatriya
    Legionary
    posted 03 October 2008 20:39 EDT (US)     22 / 30       
    But SrJames, Merkaba is standard Hebrew for Chariot... Well, actually Merkava. (Not sure why people are saying Merkaba? Might be confusion over the letter ב Which is sometimes B, but between vowels and at the end of words it is pronounced V, As I've noticed that tends to happen to Hebrew when Anglicised, Aviyah becomes Abijah, etc.)
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 03 October 2008 22:41 EDT (US)     23 / 30       
    that's all i needed to hear . thanks for the info!

    as for transliterating, i come to semitic languages through arabic, so ب is always B and never V. that's probably my fault then. Don't be surprised if i put J instead of G sometimes either :P.

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 10-03-2008 @ 10:47 PM).]

    Lone Scotsguard
    Legionary
    posted 04 October 2008 06:21 EDT (US)     24 / 30       
    To Sir James
    The list of Hebrews units are fine
    But i hope there will be many skirmisher units from slingers to javelin throwers.
    Because in that era, they fought in tribal style
    There is no close ranks formation like the greeks Phalanx or Roman Legioners.
    After all there is no single unified command for the Hebrews that day.
    All fight under their tribals flags.
    Only unified when there is a threat from their common enemy - the more sophisticated Philistines.
    The Philistines already in iron age when the hebrews still using bronze weapons.
    They are all militia class in terms of disciplines but like the religious military orders in terms of fanaticism.

    In Egypts, nubian mercenary archers are common use that time.

    I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing, Roman Cavalry choirs are singing, be my mirrors my swords my shield, my missionaries on foreign fields
    For some reason i can't explain, i know saint Peter won't call my name
    Never an honest world, but that was when i rule the world
    Andalus
    Legionary
    posted 04 October 2008 06:23 EDT (US)     25 / 30       
    SrJames, did you get my email?
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 04 October 2008 11:43 EDT (US)     26 / 30       
    Sorry - i did, but I have nothing to open .tga files with at the moment. I'm still trying to figure out why photoshop is angry with me but she's not answering my calls.

    Woops, hold the phone! Seems imageready still works and is actually better integrated with my touch-screen, making painting much easier if i can learn my way around the rest of the program...

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 10-04-2008 @ 12:06 PM).]

    PrivateClark
    Legionary
    posted 04 October 2008 13:40 EDT (US)     27 / 30       
    Hornblowers
    What do they do? Normally id think theyd be part of a cpatain model (as in they stand next to every unit next to the captain or behind him) althoughhornblowers could be a small unit with peasent stats that hugely raise allied morale?
    SrJamesTyrrel
    Legionary
    posted 04 October 2008 15:32 EDT (US)     28 / 30       
    yes, I conceived them as bishops by another name (note: not druids i don't think - i don't imagine them having good combat stats)

    What i hope is that through upkeep and building restrictions the main army lists taken by the early hebrews will remain largely composed of slings and javelins with a few solid units for the entire campaign - that is, that they won't even be able to field several large armies at a time, and spend most of their early game in israel and judah. The risk here is that making them too weak will let them die out early when the player is not making sure they survive.

    [This message has been edited by SrJamesTyrrel (edited 10-04-2008 @ 06:11 PM).]

    Andalus
    Legionary
    posted 05 October 2008 07:59 EDT (US)     29 / 30       
    We could do what they did in EoD for the Satanae (Slightly opposite mod!). There was a provincial campaign which made them harder. If there was a Hebrew provincial campaign for the player, they could be made more powerful in the main campaign.
    SubRosa
    Legionary
    posted 08 October 2008 18:44 EDT (US)     30 / 30       
    You could make them at the power level you want the player to have them at, then implement a campaign script that will change them when the AI plays the Hebrews. Or vice-versa.

    [This message has been edited by SubRosa (edited 10-08-2008 @ 06:45 PM).]

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