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Topic Subject:The "Help! I'm losing money!" thread
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Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 11:37 EDT (US)         
Since there has been made and asked continuous threads and questions about how to stop losing money in Rome: Total War, I decided to make a guide. Person after person have asked for help after they are losing money and can't understand why. "My big cities are losing lots of money! I have to exterminate!". Read this before you do. This guide will help you gain a better grasp on your empire, improve game-strategy, your financial moves and improve overall management of your empire.

Lord Ahm's guide to reducing the army upkeep

First you need to understand what army upkeep is. Army upkeep is an amount of money you have to pay each turn, how much money depends on how big your army is. Food for your soldiers and keeping weapons and armour in good condition are two things that is part of the army upkeep.

The army upkeep is divided on all your cities. For example: You have a huge army in Arretium, that army needs money to maintain itself. The army upkeep in that army will not be paid by Arretium just because the army's location is at Arretium. The upkeep expenditure will be divided to all your settlements, and the one with most citizens will pay most money.

Thats why your bigger cities are loosing money, those cities have so many citizens that they pay a large part of the army upkeep.

Then why not exterminate, so that there will be fewer citizens?

Exterminating won't help you in the long run. Sure, you get some thousand denarii that turn, but the army upkeep will just be divided to other cities. If you exterminate a large city, that pay a lot army upkeep, the income will simply decrease a bit in all other settlements, the amount they will decrease is identical as the one you loose in the big city you exterminated.

Example: Patavium is your biggest city, in Patavium there are 18 000 citizens. The income every turn is -2800 denarii. You exterminate and the population drops to 6000 citizens. You are now making 800 each turn in Patavium. "That's great!" you think, but in the next turns -2400 denarii is divided to the income of your 4 other cities.

How can I reduce the army upkeep?

To reduce the army upkeep, simply reduce the amount of soldiers! You still need forces to defend and expand your territory. You don't need much garrison in cities that are surrounded by your own regions. Have a look at this:

[JPEG, (168.83 KB)]

Here we can see that the player has a lot more garrison than he or she needs. Arretium and Ariminum have full stack garrisons! Both Arretium and Ariminum are surrounded by the players own regions (and the other Roman regions, but the player doesn't have to worry about civil war yet), therefore the player don't need much other garrison than one or two units. The other cities probably don't need that much garrison either, the armies should be out conquering new lands, not stay idle in a city.

As you also can see, the money issue isn't going too well. The player has too many forces, and too few cities to handle the army upkeep. So many forces creates a huge army upkeep. Patavium has 17075 citizens and is the biggest city with most citizens. They pay most of the army upkeep. Segesta have only 556 citizens, and pay very little army upkeep. If the player disbands or fight with some of the garrison, the army upkeep will go down. If the player doesn't get rid of some of the troops, or get some new cities, the money will go even more into minus because the upkeep is too big for just 6 cities.

[JPEG, (167.23 KB)]

This is a much better situation. The player has placed small garrisons in Arretium and Ariminum, and is concentrating the big armies on the borders of the empire. Since the huge garrisons are gone, the army upkeep is now much smaller.

So, if you want to decrease your army upkeep, try smaller garrisons and concentrate your main forces on conquering new lands and defending the borders of the empire.

What units should I use as garrison?

If you left-click on any unit, you will see their stats, if you look at the bottom of this list, you will see: "Upkeep" and there you see how much upkeep the unit require. The most ideal unit for garrison is Peasants. They are cheap, have a lot of men and cost only 100 denarii upkeep. Town Watch/Town Militia also have only 100 denarii upkeep. And remember: 30 Peasants are just as good as 30 Urban Cohort when it comes to garrison. It is the numbers which matters in garrison, not quality. That's why Peasants are so good. It can, however, be smart to keep better quality troops as garrison in cities which are in danger of being besieged (since fighting isn't exactly Peasants forte).

I followed your advice, but the citizens in the city are unhappy since there are so little garrison present!

If there are a governor in the city (or the city not is automanaged), lower the taxes. If the city is automanaged, set the policy to "Growth Policy". This will lower the taxes and make the citizens more happy. You loose some income, but you'll make that up when you get rid of some of the army upkeep. Personally, I use Growth Policy in all my automanaged settlements, and have low tax in my governed settlements. Then I can have a small garrison and I spare a lot from army upkeep.



Update: Some thought it would be a good idea to add some general tips:

- If you is in the possession of a large empire, it can pay off to make your capital more central. Example: If you own all of Italy, Greece and Africa, you would set your capital as Sparta, rather than Rome. This causes most settlements to get less "Distance from capital" and will improve your public order.

- Also (I think most of you know) Greece is the wealthiest area on the map. If you own all of Greece, your sea and land trade will produce heavy money.

- When you hold the cursor over a building, it will say for example: "Paved Roads (Greek)". If you build a Roman Highway, the building will not be Greek anymore. Your Culture Penalty will decrease when you have more buildings of your own culture


Hope this guide has been helpful. Good luck with your campaign!

Regards,
Ahm Heribeus

Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur

[This message has been edited by Lord Ahm (edited 12-30-2009 @ 08:28 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Flavius Julias
Legionary
posted 05 April 2008 12:07 EDT (US)     51 / 101       
Hey everyone, i just signed up for this, and i have a question.

I have been playing Rome Total war for 2 years now, and i still dont know about finance.
what i mean is when my towns go into negative denarii, how do i get the denarii back up to positive?
And my tax is at Very High but still goes into debt, how is this?
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 05 April 2008 12:45 EDT (US)     52 / 101       
The calculations involved in the amount of denarii a single town makes are very complex. Suffice it to say that to make any one city, which is losing money, make money is
very hard.

Have you actually read this guide? I believe it explains finances very well.


If it does not help though, I suggest also reading Terikel's Collection of the Wisdom of Our Peers, it explains a lot about finances in addition to many others things, which you may or may not know.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.

[This message has been edited by CaesarVincens (edited 04-05-2008 @ 12:46 PM).]

jimUK
Legionary
posted 03 June 2008 15:39 EDT (US)     53 / 101       
If greece is the wealthiest land in the game, why do egypt always own everyone on finances?
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 03 June 2008 20:30 EDT (US)     54 / 101       
Greece is wealthiest by trade, Egypt is better for farming, and their trade isn't too bad either. Plus Egypt often takes over the Seleucid lands, another wealthy place.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Lord Sayao
Legionary
posted 26 June 2008 15:31 EDT (US)     55 / 101       
Actually, the greek peninsuila is better than egypt, the problem is, that there are 5 factions fighting over greece, and only Egypt in Egypt, but if u can use either, macedon, greeks, brutti, thrace to take over greece in the beggining of the game, egypt is nothing. Egypt only has to worry about useless Numidia in the start and seleucids that are weak in the start too, their area is calm, easy to grow economically, and their army is cheap, but as soon as i land there with my Macedonian army that has broken greece, brutti, thrace, pontus, and seleucids, all who come in my path have been crushed, egypt will be fun, lots of wonders to add to my collection, hehe.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 02 July 2008 23:50 EDT (US)     56 / 101       
As always, Ahm's guide is a must read for new players, but I have to play grammar police for just a second.

I noticed that in the first paragraph Ahm uses a quote, "My big cities are loosing lots of money! I have to exterminate!"

The word I have to police is "loosing," which is I'm sure not the word Ahm wanted to use, meaning to use instead "losing." (Not that many notice the difference anymore...)

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
SubRosa
Legionary
posted 03 July 2008 00:53 EDT (US)     57 / 101       
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 03 July 2008 02:08 EDT (US)     58 / 101       
Chalk one up for the humans! It will be a sad day when we are "loosing" to the machines.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 03 July 2008 09:08 EDT (US)     59 / 101       
Alas, I have edited this guide countless times since I made it, improving grammar and sentence construction. I know it still isn't perfect.

Thanks for letting me know Caesar.

Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 03 July 2008 13:12 EDT (US)     60 / 101       
No problem, I thought I saw some other stuff, but that was the worst. Ahm, one last thing though, you may wish to check verb agreement after the word "player".

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Gaius Colinius
Seraph Emeritus
posted 03 July 2008 18:10 EDT (US)     61 / 101       
It's great to see this up on the front page. Well done Ahm. One of the best resources out there for RTW players.

-Love Gaius
TWH Seraph, TWH Grand Zinquisitor & Crazy Gaius the Banstick Kid

Got news regarding Total War games that should be publicised? Then email m2twnews@heavengames.com. My blog.
Nelson was the typical Englishman: hot-headed, impetuous, unreliable, passionate, emotional & boisterous. Wellington was the typical Irishman: cold, reserved, calculating, unsentimental & ruthless" - George Bernard Shaw
Vote for McCain...he's not dead just yet! - HP Lovesauce

Monkcrazy5
Legionary
posted 05 August 2008 11:10 EDT (US)     62 / 101       
Is 8,000 denarii a turn alot for a city to make?

Monkcrazy5

Creator of the maps"of fire and of water"

Livers are icky, he can keep it. I take my heads like any good barbarian-Subrosa
For the love of...leave my liver out of your sig!-Impspy
SrJamesTyrrel
Legionary
posted 05 August 2008 11:49 EDT (US)     63 / 101       
yes. spend it as quickly as possible to avoid corruption traits. you can hire more garrisons, bribe enemies, build structures...etc. corruption traits are the game's way of saying "you're playing too slow!"
Fritz Stein
Legionary
posted 27 October 2008 20:46 EDT (US)     64 / 101       
OK... so I've read this thread and been following everything it says, although... in my (new) phartia (i think) campaign, everything was going fine, I was crushing the seleucids (short campaign, they were top of my list) but then, everyone turned against me within 2 turns. Now, I'm loosing money like crazy, even though I immediately sent the majority of my garrison out to fight... (I obviously can't disband, seeing as I'm at war with 5 factions plus the rebels.)
My capital already got taken over, I've got 2 cities in the way north, then susa and seleucia and I'm hanging to one more (starts with a P and belonged to rebels when I took it). I'm loosing around 1500 in two of those (susa and the one in the corner), and my other cities arent making enough profit to make up for that. Yes, Army Upkeep is the main problem, followed by wages. I've got too many spies. Any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by Fritz Stein (edited 10-27-2008 @ 08:49 PM).]

Gaius Colinius
Seraph Emeritus
posted 28 October 2008 18:55 EDT (US)     65 / 101       
Can you post a screenshot of your financial screen please to help us to help you? (press "F" to get it).

-Love Gaius
TWH Seraph, TWH Grand Zinquisitor & Crazy Gaius the Banstick Kid

Got news regarding Total War games that should be publicised? Then email m2twnews@heavengames.com. My blog.
Nelson was the typical Englishman: hot-headed, impetuous, unreliable, passionate, emotional & boisterous. Wellington was the typical Irishman: cold, reserved, calculating, unsentimental & ruthless" - George Bernard Shaw
Vote for McCain...he's not dead just yet! - HP Lovesauce

dsmi1
Legionary
posted 28 October 2008 19:00 EDT (US)     66 / 101       
Its fair to say you are in quite a lot of trouble. You need to get on the offensive and take a town because if your losing money every turn its only a matter of time before its game over.

Also in your remaining cities make sure you pump up the tax to the highest levels you can allow before the public order gets too low to squeeze out as much money as possible.

The last thing I can think of is try to gain a ceasefire & trade rights with someone. I know you probably dont have much to offer except map information but its still worth a shot.
Fritz Stein
Legionary
posted 29 October 2008 16:56 EDT (US)     67 / 101       
Um... I know how to take the screenshot, but where does it save it to?

Anyway... my net profit each turn is around -2000, and decreasing. I'm already in -4000.
Gaius Colinius
Seraph Emeritus
posted 04 November 2008 16:57 EDT (US)     68 / 101       
There should be a folder called "tgas" in your RTW folder. They will be in there. You can view and convert them to jpeg's using Irfanview.
More info here.

-Love Gaius
TWH Seraph, TWH Grand Zinquisitor & Crazy Gaius the Banstick Kid

Got news regarding Total War games that should be publicised? Then email m2twnews@heavengames.com. My blog.
Nelson was the typical Englishman: hot-headed, impetuous, unreliable, passionate, emotional & boisterous. Wellington was the typical Irishman: cold, reserved, calculating, unsentimental & ruthless" - George Bernard Shaw
Vote for McCain...he's not dead just yet! - HP Lovesauce

[This message has been edited by Saxo Grammaticus (edited 11-04-2008 @ 04:58 PM).]

Brutiangodofrock
Legionary
posted 05 November 2008 13:49 EDT (US)     69 / 101       
Worst comes to worst, there is always the money cheat. It's: the "`" button, next to the 1 then type "add_money #" The max number you can do is 40000 i think
darthgrape
Legionary
posted 29 March 2009 11:36 EDT (US)     70 / 101       
i find that parthia is the poorest faction but the romans (especially the brutii) seem to bring in dollops of cash. kinda unfair i think as romans have great troops and the money to keep them!!!
auxfaust
Legionary
posted 06 August 2010 12:46 EDT (US)     71 / 101       
Hi, just signed up to this great forum. Already lurked a bit, tons of useful info!

Ontopic: I usually set taxes to the max in the cities closest to capital and get about +2000 extra denari early in the game
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 06 August 2010 12:52 EDT (US)     72 / 101       
Welcome to Rome Total War Heaven, auxfaust.

Ľ EDORIX Ľ
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
ExecutionSquare
Legionary
posted 31 August 2010 00:19 EDT (US)     73 / 101       
I have once made some calculations(not 100% precise), to determine, if it is more profitable to set high taxes and to hold large garrisons, or to do the oposite.

I came to the conclusion that its better (whenever possible), to use small garrison with low taxes. some said here, that higher tax rate will bring more wealth from the big cities. its true, but the garrison you need to pacifay a large city is much bigger then for the small one. for example in some tiny settlment 80% publuc order could be getten from a sungle desert inf unit(60 men). in my biggest cities i need a small army to get 5%.
so if its not profitable, the city size doesnt change it.

But the main reason to use small garrison & taxes, is because large taxes reduce your population growth.

so in result you get somewhat less profit, and loose population, this is not efficient.

[This message has been edited by ExecutionSquare (edited 08-31-2010 @ 00:22 AM).]

eth689
Legionary
posted 25 November 2010 23:28 EDT (US)     74 / 101       
this has been nice and all but the problem is tensions are high in rome, the civil war will start soon. And there is no middle city in my empire. its is north africa, thapsus, sicily and that Capua place in italy. I guess i could to one of the cicilian cities but what troubles me is i don't think my armies is the problem. I was doing fine when i developed trade with Egypt. I got more money but they pissed me off saying. "The great pharaoh smiles upon your humble decision", or "The mighty pharaoh is amused at your tries but denies military acess" and stuff like that, so i stopped our trade. imediately i went into decline, losing tons of money, even when i reopened trade nothing got better. I have finally gotten better (every faction trades with me except numidia lol) but i want to know how this happened so i can prevent from happening again. Also just something weird, Dacia is the strongest empire in my game, wtf?
Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 26 November 2010 00:45 EDT (US)     75 / 101       
Well as for the capital part, if by North Africa you mean Carthage, Cirta and Tingi, then I would put Carthage as your capital. If by North Africa you mean Carthage, then I'd put Lilybaeum as your capital. Best for the circumstances I'd say.

And as for why resuming trade didn't help you out majorly like it did before might be because of a changed map. For example, when you had trade, you may have had a settlement that could trade with only that city. Then later, when you got trade back, you may have had another settlement that the first city could trade with, and thus wouldn't trade with the other, Egyptian city.


I may be wrong, but that's what I can think of. Clarify the settlements you have. Otherwise I don't think that with the list provided you could trade with Egypt unless they had already conquered up to Lepcis Magna.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
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