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Topic Subject:The "Help! I'm losing money!" thread
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Lord Ahm
Legionary
posted 29 June 2005 11:37 EDT (US)         
Since there has been made and asked continuous threads and questions about how to stop losing money in Rome: Total War, I decided to make a guide. Person after person have asked for help after they are losing money and can't understand why. "My big cities are losing lots of money! I have to exterminate!". Read this before you do. This guide will help you gain a better grasp on your empire, improve game-strategy, your financial moves and improve overall management of your empire.

Lord Ahm's guide to reducing the army upkeep

First you need to understand what army upkeep is. Army upkeep is an amount of money you have to pay each turn, how much money depends on how big your army is. Food for your soldiers and keeping weapons and armour in good condition are two things that is part of the army upkeep.

The army upkeep is divided on all your cities. For example: You have a huge army in Arretium, that army needs money to maintain itself. The army upkeep in that army will not be paid by Arretium just because the army's location is at Arretium. The upkeep expenditure will be divided to all your settlements, and the one with most citizens will pay most money.

Thats why your bigger cities are loosing money, those cities have so many citizens that they pay a large part of the army upkeep.

Then why not exterminate, so that there will be fewer citizens?

Exterminating won't help you in the long run. Sure, you get some thousand denarii that turn, but the army upkeep will just be divided to other cities. If you exterminate a large city, that pay a lot army upkeep, the income will simply decrease a bit in all other settlements, the amount they will decrease is identical as the one you loose in the big city you exterminated.

Example: Patavium is your biggest city, in Patavium there are 18 000 citizens. The income every turn is -2800 denarii. You exterminate and the population drops to 6000 citizens. You are now making 800 each turn in Patavium. "That's great!" you think, but in the next turns -2400 denarii is divided to the income of your 4 other cities.

How can I reduce the army upkeep?

To reduce the army upkeep, simply reduce the amount of soldiers! You still need forces to defend and expand your territory. You don't need much garrison in cities that are surrounded by your own regions. Have a look at this:

[JPEG, (168.83 KB)]

Here we can see that the player has a lot more garrison than he or she needs. Arretium and Ariminum have full stack garrisons! Both Arretium and Ariminum are surrounded by the players own regions (and the other Roman regions, but the player doesn't have to worry about civil war yet), therefore the player don't need much other garrison than one or two units. The other cities probably don't need that much garrison either, the armies should be out conquering new lands, not stay idle in a city.

As you also can see, the money issue isn't going too well. The player has too many forces, and too few cities to handle the army upkeep. So many forces creates a huge army upkeep. Patavium has 17075 citizens and is the biggest city with most citizens. They pay most of the army upkeep. Segesta have only 556 citizens, and pay very little army upkeep. If the player disbands or fight with some of the garrison, the army upkeep will go down. If the player doesn't get rid of some of the troops, or get some new cities, the money will go even more into minus because the upkeep is too big for just 6 cities.

[JPEG, (167.23 KB)]

This is a much better situation. The player has placed small garrisons in Arretium and Ariminum, and is concentrating the big armies on the borders of the empire. Since the huge garrisons are gone, the army upkeep is now much smaller.

So, if you want to decrease your army upkeep, try smaller garrisons and concentrate your main forces on conquering new lands and defending the borders of the empire.

What units should I use as garrison?

If you left-click on any unit, you will see their stats, if you look at the bottom of this list, you will see: "Upkeep" and there you see how much upkeep the unit require. The most ideal unit for garrison is Peasants. They are cheap, have a lot of men and cost only 100 denarii upkeep. Town Watch/Town Militia also have only 100 denarii upkeep. And remember: 30 Peasants are just as good as 30 Urban Cohort when it comes to garrison. It is the numbers which matters in garrison, not quality. That's why Peasants are so good. It can, however, be smart to keep better quality troops as garrison in cities which are in danger of being besieged (since fighting isn't exactly Peasants forte).

I followed your advice, but the citizens in the city are unhappy since there are so little garrison present!

If there are a governor in the city (or the city not is automanaged), lower the taxes. If the city is automanaged, set the policy to "Growth Policy". This will lower the taxes and make the citizens more happy. You loose some income, but you'll make that up when you get rid of some of the army upkeep. Personally, I use Growth Policy in all my automanaged settlements, and have low tax in my governed settlements. Then I can have a small garrison and I spare a lot from army upkeep.



Update: Some thought it would be a good idea to add some general tips:

- If you is in the possession of a large empire, it can pay off to make your capital more central. Example: If you own all of Italy, Greece and Africa, you would set your capital as Sparta, rather than Rome. This causes most settlements to get less "Distance from capital" and will improve your public order.

- Also (I think most of you know) Greece is the wealthiest area on the map. If you own all of Greece, your sea and land trade will produce heavy money.

- When you hold the cursor over a building, it will say for example: "Paved Roads (Greek)". If you build a Roman Highway, the building will not be Greek anymore. Your Culture Penalty will decrease when you have more buildings of your own culture


Hope this guide has been helpful. Good luck with your campaign!

Regards,
Ahm Heribeus

Ahm Heribeus
Is a suits murmur

[This message has been edited by Lord Ahm (edited 12-30-2009 @ 08:28 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
GundamMerc
Legionary
posted 26 November 2010 12:54 EDT (US)     76 / 101       
I actually prefer to have very high taxes on my settlements as much as possible for the very reason that it controls population growth. This way I have more turns to build all the buildings needed for each settlement to become a participating member of my empire.

"The only one here who could possibly help us is Edorix. Unfortunately, he is busy off killing Romans right now."- GundamMerc (an imagined quote)
eth689
Legionary
posted 13 December 2010 21:04 EDT (US)     77 / 101       
punic my capital is carthage and your first guess is correct, i own cirta, tingi and thapsus. You could be right. But I'm too busy to do anything cause i'm having a chemical warfare battle with numidia (serious we've given eachother like six different plagues) thank you but i'm pretty screwed. my only hope is that i can conquer spain while the others are distracted by the civil war.
saber2th
Legionary
posted 09 March 2011 20:07 EDT (US)     78 / 101       
Hi guys this a fantastic forum and I love it. Now I have a different problem. I've chosen to be Jullii faction and my major opponent is the brutii. we share the vast empire into two equal halves. however my question is- will the provices with whom I had trade routes before, now conqured by the bruttii stop trading with me? and one more thing, most of the frontier provinces are in full garrison with advanced troops, cause of the cold war between our two factions ( we are neutral, and am neutral with rome too, but rome and bruttii are allies) and my frontier provinces are much more developed and populated than the interior one's. But my captial is still loosing money.. and though the people are happy, there are a huge number of squalers in my capital!.

How do we go about this???

I founded Rome as a city of bricks and left it as a city of Marble.

The Dye is cast!

Quintilius Varus were are my eagles!!!
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 10 March 2011 02:39 EDT (US)     79 / 101       
If you have trade rights with the new owners, then the trade routes will pretty much stay the same. The cities will, however, evaluate which trading partners will generate the most income and go there. If your cities pass the test, the routes remain.

Cities never lose money. Ever. Get that nonsense out of your head right now. They may have a negative income, but that is income minus taxes. It means that city is giving more money to your warchest than it earns. Easy way to fix this? Go forth and conquer, my son. Spread the burden over more cities. Simple.

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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 March 2011 03:30 EDT (US)     80 / 101       
They may have a negative income, but that is income minus taxes. It means that city is giving more money to your warchest than it earns.
Just to clarify, what Terikel means to say is that is the income of the city minus the share of the upkeep it has to pay (for troops, agents, etc). Thus, when it appears negative on the stratmap, the settlement's share of your unit upkeep is larger than its actual income.

I found what Terikel had written rather unclear, so I thought I'd reiterate.

PROCRASTINATE NOT JAMAIS ARRIERE
saber2th
Legionary
posted 10 March 2011 18:00 EDT (US)     81 / 101       
Terikel and Drokantos, cheers fellas. Well I' smashing through the brutii. rome is a bit trembled as well.. laid siege to 7 regions of the brutii at the same time.

Rome sent a diplomat to negotiate the brutii sent one too.. I demanded money and them becoming protectorate (brutii) fingers crossed it works..Now one other question.

If there is a revolt in one of the towns in Italy and I exterminate the populace... will this affect my standing with Rome? cause here am slaughtering my own people..

Cheers

Saber2th

I founded Rome as a city of bricks and left it as a city of Marble.

The Dye is cast!

Quintilius Varus were are my eagles!!!
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 March 2011 18:26 EDT (US)     82 / 101       
I think nominally there is some form of global reputation, although I'm unsure if occupy/enslave/exterminate are involved. With RTW's broken diplomacy, it makes no difference anyway.

Regardless, you've no need to worry. Exterminating a city isn't going to cause alliances to break any more than occupying would (the actual war causes the problems) and you evidently don't have to worry about Rome's relationship, since your eventual goal is to destroy them.

The only issue I can imagine is one of roleplaying. Do you, as a Roman, really want to slaughter other Romans? Maybe they're traitors, and deserve the sword. Or are they mere Italian allies, and nothing special?

PROCRASTINATE NOT JAMAIS ARRIERE
saber2th
Legionary
posted 10 March 2011 21:20 EDT (US)     83 / 101       
Alright here we go. Brutii are reduced to 2 provinces and my provinces bordering theirs are filled with the best trainned troops in the known world and with young generals with 7*s.

Now I havent touched parthia yet! who are causing minor troubles in judea! I'm gonna fight a purely cavelry battle against them! with 2 heavy infantry and 4 slingers!

The economic crisis has ended (100 BC). I have one other challenge! the support of the people to march on Rome! I lost their support as soon as I attacked the brutti ( I had lot of support when I initially started my campaign against them.

How do I regain their support? I would like to march on rome before I wage war against parthia.

Oh and the whole of north africa is revolting (lol, this is fun) and laid seige to almost all the cities down there. gonna reduce them to dust!

Cheers

Saber2th

I founded Rome as a city of bricks and left it as a city of Marble.

The Dye is cast!

Quintilius Varus were are my eagles!!!
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 11 March 2011 04:22 EDT (US)     84 / 101       
If you've broken the Roman alliance, you should already be able to march on Rome...?

PROCRASTINATE NOT JAMAIS ARRIERE
Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)
posted 11 March 2011 18:07 EDT (US)     85 / 101       
After declaring war on your fellow romans, your public support will drop but you donot need their public support to keep the war going...Once you start the civil war you have to finish it...

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda
saber2th
Legionary
posted 11 March 2011 18:36 EDT (US)     86 / 101       
Drakontos and awesomemated, I don't know.. I select my general and ask him and his troops to attack rome, the tick sign is blurded/ cannot click! but I do fight with the brutii, the scipii are wiped out. Could this be a bug???

I need help

I founded Rome as a city of bricks and left it as a city of Marble.

The Dye is cast!

Quintilius Varus were are my eagles!!!
Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)
posted 11 March 2011 18:52 EDT (US)     87 / 101       
hmm must be a bug of some kind... Are you officially at war with the Senate? did you make peace with them at some point?

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda
saber2th
Legionary
posted 11 March 2011 19:55 EDT (US)     88 / 101       
hi awesome. when I moved my general into the rome territory (violet outline) the senate sent a diplomat asking for cease fire. I granted them one after extracting 100,000 dinarii.. quite a sum to pay, but they did... bruttii are protectorate now.. and the war against parthia has started.. belted them in the first two battles.. pushing their forces out of Judea.

*I like to give all info around the map, cause I don't know if other battles/ wars could hinder war against rome*

Cheers

I founded Rome as a city of bricks and left it as a city of Marble.

The Dye is cast!

Quintilius Varus were are my eagles!!!
Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)
posted 12 March 2011 07:55 EDT (US)     89 / 101       
hmm... i actually dont know about that one.. i have never made a cease fire with the SPQR during the civil war...Sorry mate...

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda
saber2th
Legionary
posted 12 March 2011 09:15 EDT (US)     90 / 101       
awesome you should try it out.. they beg you for a cease fire.. and comply with anything you ask lol..

I founded Rome as a city of bricks and left it as a city of Marble.

The Dye is cast!

Quintilius Varus were are my eagles!!!
Hologen
Legionary
posted 05 July 2011 18:17 EDT (US)     91 / 101       
This guide as a whole makes no sense to me considering you still have to pay upkeep for armies out on the field. And some towns allow for free units. So if anything you spend even more when you send them all out of the towns. Or maybe I'm totally missing something...
Ischenous
Legionary
posted 05 July 2011 19:07 EDT (US)     92 / 101       
It's a while since I played but I'm certain you do not get free upkeep on anything in Rome. Upkeep only changes when the number of men in the unit changes.

You aren't thinking of M2 are you?

Calling all new people. USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION before asking a question. Thank you.
Alert the APOCOLYPSE is coming!!!!!!!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM(Itcame)
"TWH Guild Award (Best Duo/Trio) -Ischenous/IJ"- Tryhard. Why he chose that nomination, I don't know...
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 06 July 2011 01:33 EDT (US)     93 / 101       
Or maybe I'm totally missing something
You are.

Soldiers cost more than peasants, and generate less public order due to their smaller formations.

You also do not need full stacks or green faces- blue will do. Use the soldiers you had as garrison as warriors to gain new lands (and therefore more money) while the lowly peasants keep your taxes high and your cities occupied.

Even shorter- soldiers cost a lot more denarii in upkeep that peasants. Use your troops wisely- soldiers for fighting, peasants for garrison.

Better?

Oh, and welcome to our forums!

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Hologen
Legionary
posted 06 July 2011 02:44 EDT (US)     94 / 101       
Well, I got all that (and already do all that) but I guess I was under the impression that Lord Ahm was suggesting only garrisoned units pay upkeep. My apologies for taking the wrong meaning.

Doesn't matter though, I'm still broke! Time to dismiss some units perhaps..
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 06 July 2011 07:18 EDT (US)     95 / 101       
Don't disband. Just run them into the enemy. At least that way you'll get a few kills in.
The Bald Eagle
Legionary
posted 06 July 2011 08:11 EDT (US)     96 / 101       
however disbanding near some of your better cities will increase your taxbase.
Less kills, but more denari.
DonRaphael
Legionary
posted 09 August 2011 10:59 EDT (US)     97 / 101       
Another thing I always do trying to keep my settlements not to riot by keeping pop. growth low is to NOT build any sewers/baths whatsoever. Building these will only cause trouble later in the game when the population shots up the roof. Take Carthage for example or the Niledelta. As soon as I conquer these settlements I immediately destroy the sewers built in these settlements to slow down population growth. Otherwise I wont be in time with my religious buildings (yeah, I also destroy all religious buildings that aren't belonging to my faction) and garrison (you want to move your army out of the settlements as fast as possible to conquer new lands).

Also, unless I REALLY need the money in an ongoing war I don't exterminate the population. It's better not to in the long-run money/incomewise.

At last, I always try to keep my tax as high as possible unless I need my population to grow as fast as possible to recruit quality units (another way to keep population growth high WITH high taxes is to enslave populations when conquering new settlements, but this requires a very offensive approach which isn't always possible).
brianiangoodman
Legionary
posted 12 August 2011 20:08 EDT (US)     98 / 101       
I just want to let you know that I figured out this monetary thing.

First of all, just because one or two cities of your is losing some money isn't a great cause for concern. Take a look at the finance scroll. It should tell you what your income and expenses are. If your income is well above your expenses, you should be fine. If your income is below your expenses, you need to do something to cut cost or your treasury might end up with a minus, which will prevent you from doing anything.

Note: You need to give paychecks to all your generals and agent. You need to be careful of how many agents and generals you obtain.

It is a good idea to check your finance scroll everytime you get a new general or agent, or after you recruit several units. Doing this will allow you to see how these things are effecting your finances, and you'll be able to take action to prevent any forseeable problems.

Golden Rules of Compainging:
1. It's the Economy
2. Controlled Expansion
3. Keeping Momentum
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 12 August 2011 22:00 EDT (US)     99 / 101       
Brian, remember that no city, none whatsoever, lose you money.

If you mean that the money it is actually generating is going down, then the only way that happens is if the population is minus growth, therefore less taxes.
Total Spartan
Legionary
posted 16 October 2011 12:46 EDT (US)     100 / 101       
Epic mate well done iv just joined about 5 mins ago and first post iv read. Hope most posts here are as usfull as this 1 thank you.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 16 October 2011 13:54 EDT (US)     101 / 101       
Welcome to our hallowed forums, Total Spartan!

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
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