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Total War Heaven » Forums » Medieval 2 Multiplayer Discussion and Hotseat Forum » (HotseatA) Hotseat position / general discussion
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Topic Subject:(HotseatA) Hotseat position / general discussion
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SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 07 December 2008 04:28 EDT (US)         
Hotseat game status: - Sicily has won on turn 115



Players (in turn order): (with links to write-ups) plus some other links where I consider it to be funny

Selifator: England
Kilij Ae Varyl: Spain

Venice - FACTION DESTROYED

Me Sicily

EoJ: Turks
I think I might have referenced this video before in the first crusade
This might be more appropriate... Looks like I was right there

Rankings - Turn 101



Rankings - Turn 69



Subs
Glacier_Girl played as sub for England - T29, T30
- played as sub for Sicily - T33

Monty501 played as sub for Spain T30, T 31
JuBuOrangie played as sub for Venice - T31 to T40
Lloydsgamble played as sub for Venice T41 to 42
Brutiangodofrock played as sub for Venice T43 to T65
Zsmart one played as sub for Turks T50 to T65
Hashoosh played as sub for Turks T64


Rules to note:

No 'exploiting' of any kind (e.g. putting forts on resources and stocking them with merchants) nor reloading your go to get a better result.

If I don't hear from a player within 4 days of receiving a turn, I will try to find a sub to take the turn.

If you don't expect to be able to play within 4 days, just let me know - extensions are fine (preferably not too often though please). I'll send a reminder email after a couple of days as a prompt.

If you expect an extended absence, e.g. not being able to play for over a week, you're invited to arrange a sub, giving them instructions etc so your turn is played as you'd like it to be.

An 'un-arranged' sub has the option to take over after 2 weeks or 10 turns The '2 weeks' here looks a little low, but the turn limit looks high?

[This message has been edited by SwampRat (edited 01-18-2013 @ 01:21 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 19 October 2009 09:10 EDT (US)     876 / 1439       
Well, lets first hear from him and then make my moves. To make a big splash, you need every pieces in place.

Michael Jackson
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 19 October 2009 20:55 EDT (US)     877 / 1439       
All powerful Allah, the message I received from Venice guaranteed that JuBu is going to attack me. I alone had no probability of defending against three Crusading nations but fourth human Catholic nation chose to war against me means the improbable is now impossible. Sadly.

What are your terms of surrender?

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-19-2009 @ 09:01 PM).]

Selifator
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 01:53 EDT (US)     878 / 1439       
NATO conference will be needed. Chance of political bickering: 100%. Probability of backstabbing: high.

You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way.

Chauvinism is not a particularly nice trait at the best of times but can be suicidal when the person your talking too can have you executed on a whim.

Facebook, anyone?
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 02:16 EDT (US)     879 / 1439       
Turn 41 sent to England.

Take your sweet times over your victory parade. As the lost party I am expecting demands for heavy indenmities and such. "Vae victis", or something like that.

On a totally unrelated point, only 21 posts until the 900th one.

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-20-2009 @ 02:59 AM).]

JuBuOrangie
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 05:48 EDT (US)     880 / 1439       
el_bandito I never really backstabbed you since I never agreed to ally with you I thought it would be dishonorable to take more territories for an alliance I didnt want so I never agreed to it. I consider it us close to even because you basically paid me for a peace that we did have for around 7=8 turns.

I dont think a terms of surrender is good and I'm not even sure if your just going to use it as a ruse to reinforce your border cities and navies.
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 06:20 EDT (US)     881 / 1439       
el_bandito I never really backstabbed you since I never agreed to ally with you I thought it would be dishonorable to take more territories for an alliance I didnt want so I never agreed to it.
Look JuBu, it is against my ethics to show e-mail correspondence on the forums so I wont do that. But you know full well that we agreed to an eventual Alliance and we only put it off until our surprise attack, because we thought the others will perceive it as grave threat if we do so soon. You simply went back on your word, like the previous Doge did. My plan of fast ending this hot-seat was effectively blocked when you got scared of the Western nations and decided to abandon me. I don't know exactly when you did you decide about it but I am betting it was from turn 38 onwards, when you stopped replying to my proposed strategies.

Of course, I will blame only myself, for being hoodwinked by the Venetians for the second time.
I dont think a terms of surrender is good and I'm not even sure if your just going to use it as a ruse to reinforce your border cities and navies.
I am prepared to let you guys take and divide all of my conquered cities from the time Hoppy sank my ships, from the recent Tripoli, to Istanbul (yeah, it hurts).

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-20-2009 @ 07:35 AM).]

EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 20 October 2009 11:36 EDT (US)     882 / 1439       
That's quite substantial, and would certainly meet my targets. What is the full list?
f course, I will blame only myself, for being hoodwinked by the Venetians for the second time.
I'm afraid I had full knowledge of this betrayal. Sorry, Bandito.

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Selifator
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 11:53 EDT (US)     883 / 1439       
Sorry. Pfft. Come now EoJ. =D

You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way.

Chauvinism is not a particularly nice trait at the best of times but can be suicidal when the person your talking too can have you executed on a whim.

Facebook, anyone?
JuBuOrangie
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 14:50 EDT (US)     884 / 1439       
The Turks need to be put in their place and a diplomatic agreement does not show the kind of teeth that The Turks need to see. They have been the most powerful and now they need to learn who holds the real power in the civilized world.
SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 20 October 2009 15:13 EDT (US)     885 / 1439       
Will the jihad will be cancelled when you order all the generals currently on it to quit it? I assume so on the basis that they can 'fail' after a while. If not do we need to ask you to gather all of your jihadding armies on single ships for spain to get revenge?
My plan of fast ending this hot-seat was effectively blocked
What was that plan out of interest? You'd have techincally won if you'd just pushed him into a protectorship position which you probably could have done fairly easily.
Arguably your demeanour of being overly pacifist (on the surface) to Spain, England and even Sicily for the little patch from turn 30-wheneveritwas would have put any one in Venice's position in a very hard place.

Personally I still think Venice is on the side of the turks - it's all too neat
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 20 October 2009 16:53 EDT (US)     886 / 1439       
Sorry. Pfft. Come now EoJ. =D
Shush, I'm bluffing

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 20 October 2009 22:10 EDT (US)     887 / 1439       
That's quite substantial, and would certainly meet my targets. What is the full list?
Here is the full list: Tripoli, Thessalonika, Sofia, Istanbul, Nicaea, and Iraklion. If the Venetians do not accept peace and amend for their treachery then you can add Corinth to the list on the next turn and Durazzo after that.

I will let you guys take over these settlements if you guys give up on this Crusade and end the war. Naturally, I will also cease Jihad immediately and disband all armies under Jihading banner.

There. These are the terms I am willing to go through.
What was that plan out of interest? You'd have techincally won if you'd just pushed him into a protectorship position which you probably could have done fairly easily.
Why, to jointly attack the rest alongside Venice and make a jolly bloody war and decide the game once and for all. It would have been Grand scale...would have been. I said before, winning the game with territorial count is lame and boring.
As for my lenient terms to the defeated Venice--I am a person who believes the policies of "Today's enemy is tomorrow's ally", and "Lenient terms lead to longer peace while harsh terms lead to further strife".

If I had made Venice my protectorate, then I wouldn't even have 5 turns of peace, you guys would be swarming for Crusade immediately. Plus it will be much harder for me to suspect Venice's treachery if it was my protectorate.
You are right on the quality too, peasants are mighty scary - they could bleed on you if you're not careful
I seem to recall those Venetian stacks were the exact same ones who made you piss your breeches 10 turns ago, how times change. You asked me to get rid of them then.

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-20-2009 @ 11:12 PM).]

EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 22 October 2009 13:29 EDT (US)     888 / 1439       
Why, to jointly attack the rest alongside Venice and make a jolly bloody war and decide the game once and for all. It would have been Grand scale...would have been. I said before, winning the game with territorial count is lame and boring.
Heh, yeah, it would be worth defeat going down like that, it has to be said.
Here is the full list: Tripoli, Thessalonika, Sofia, Istanbul, Nicaea, and Iraklion. If the Venetians do not accept peace and amend for their treachery then you can add Corinth to the list on the next turn and Durazzo after that.

I will let you guys take over these settlements if you guys give up on this Crusade and end the war. Naturally, I will also cease Jihad immediately and disband all armies under Jihading banner.

There. These are the terms I am willing to go through.
Comments, guys?

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
JuBuOrangie
Legionary
posted 22 October 2009 17:01 EDT (US)     889 / 1439       
NO

EDIT: Now that I have seen what the Turks have done I can honestly say that we Defenders of True Faith have one goal, the demise of every single last Turk, the only way we will fail that goal is if we are killed to the last man.

[This message has been edited by JuBuOrangie (edited 10-22-2009 @ 08:14 PM).]

el_bandito
Legionary
posted 22 October 2009 22:20 EDT (US)     890 / 1439       
Sorry JuBu, your refusal does not matter in the least. You are not the one who is Crusading, and my terms are for those who are actually Crusading. Ex-com Venice does not scare me the least.

Nor I want you to think that I am willing to cede to Venice some lands of mine. N.O.
I hate traitors more than my enemies. All the lands I am going to give up will be divided by England, Spain and Sicily only. Six lands so I think 2 for each maybe? Perhaps Spain gets Istanbul and Iraklion, England gets Sofia and Nicaea, and Sicily gets Tripoli, and Thessalonika?
Maybe Venice can beg back some of its lost lands from those three after I had given them away.

I frankly don't give a damn if Venice will continue the war because my hatred towards Venice is now even greater than yours, JuBu.

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-22-2009 @ 10:30 PM).]

Selifator
Legionary
posted 23 October 2009 03:24 EDT (US)     891 / 1439       
The problem for us is that the Crusade won't stop until the target has been taken, meaning that either we need to take the target or we need to disband our Crusade armies, leaving us weak and vulnerable.

Time for us Crusaders to get round the table and discuss this. Though I can say that I like your proposal Bandito.

You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way.

Chauvinism is not a particularly nice trait at the best of times but can be suicidal when the person your talking too can have you executed on a whim.

Facebook, anyone?
SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 23 October 2009 04:14 EDT (US)     892 / 1439       
Before agreeing the difficult details - there's a point on the implementation that could be a total deal breaker so it's good to get aired early (imho). Given each of the sides here need to step off of religious ventures, someone needs to jump first. I would not be comfortable leaving the crusade (indeed letting it close off) without the jihad first being cancelled since it's against my lands and without the threat of being able to fight back (a bit) defence is that bit harder.

At one or two points above, Bandito has said 'will give' and 'will let take'. Is it to be a case we continue to those targets and take with armies (the defenders evacuating first) or await diplomatic greetings?

I'll choose not to comment on my impression of the Venetian stack 10 turns ago - I'll go so far as to say that Bandito's comment made me smile :0)
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 23 October 2009 06:07 EDT (US)     893 / 1439       
The problem for us is that the Crusade won't stop until the target has been taken, meaning that either we need to take the target or we need to disband our Crusade armies, leaving us weak and vulnerable.
I doubt even with disbanding you guys will be "weak and vulnerable". Remember, it is 4 vs. 1. Am I scaring everyone that much?

Let me further assure you. You can let your general choose to abandon Crusade now, and you will see that no soldier will desert on the next turn. Why? Game mechanics of course. Plus, you can easily recruit local Mercenaries to make up with any potential loss.
Since I also promised to disband all my Jihading army, it will be alright.
I would not be comfortable leaving the crusade (indeed letting it close off) without the jihad first being cancelled since it's against my lands and without the threat of being able to fight back (a bit) defence is that bit harder.
Lets see. You got a full stack in Naples, a full stack in Palermo, and third large stack in Tunis + whatever I do not see. You are clearly safe from whatever I can throw at you at the moment. Your military rating alone equals mine. Plus, you are not alone.

Swampy, I do understand your need for caution, but remember, you broke the cease-fire first, not me. You discarded the every agreement we had, not me. If it is about diplomatic credibility, I have plenty of it.
Is it to be a case we continue to those targets and take with armies (the defenders evacuating first) or await diplomatic greetings?
That is something you guys need to consult with each others first. I doubt you guys will stay still and resist the urge of Crusade. IF you guys reach an agreement and abandon the Crusade, I will let your armies (non-Crusading) take over the said cities without a fight. You can send diplomats if that is faster.

Just remember, continued intrusion to my territories without an agreement first will leave me with no choice but to strike back. Whether you guys want to see your fleets sunk and your stacks broken and your generals iced before making any headway, or to embrace peace and extra territories with minimum of effort is up to you. I am magnanimous but that doesn't mean I will not fight until the bitter end.

A part of me also desires this overwhelming disadvantageous war simply because there is a romantic side of it, echoing the tenacious defense of Gallipoli.

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-23-2009 @ 06:49 AM).]

SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 23 October 2009 07:33 EDT (US)     894 / 1439       
Meh, Gallipoli was more of an awfully organised attack (oh wait, actually maybe it is a good analogy, particularly given Spain's involvement so far )
Still, probably best not to go there (the discussion rather than (or maybe as well as) the place)

I think earlier Constanstinople was mentioned as a part of the surrender - is that still on?

Just to clarify, are you saying because we're more numerous we all need to leave the crusade (so you can see that the crusade is finished) before you'll leave the jihad? What happens if say Sicily and England leave the crusade but Spain doesn't - does it count as voiding the deal and you carry on to jihad on Sicily or do you finish the jihad anyway and expect some sort of blocking action against Spain?
It'll be horridly messy but as you say better than fighting.
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 23 October 2009 08:55 EDT (US)     895 / 1439       
I think earlier Constanstinople was mentioned as a part of the surrender - is that still on?
Yes, Istanbul will be among those which can be taken. Just don't change the name once you acquire it. It might give me an excuse to retake it. Since EoJ seems to prefer Istanbul over Constantinople I do not mind too much of giving the place to Spain.
It is still very painful as I had taken a great effort to take the city in the first place, killing the Venetian faction leader in the process. (I really don't think you guys appreciate just how big of a sacrifice I am making here)
I merely occupied the place so it is full of populace.
Just to clarify, are you saying because we're more numerous we all need to leave the crusade (so you can see that the crusade is finished) before you'll leave the jihad? What happens if say Sicily and England leave the crusade but Spain doesn't - does it count as voiding the deal and you carry on to jihad on Sicily or do you finish the jihad anyway and expect some sort of blocking action against Spain?
Frankly, I trust Spain more than either England or Sicily. Mostly because Spain never had the chance to betray me since we never had any pacts in the first place. Plus, I have every bit of reason to think EoJ is content with this agreement.

As soon as the Crusade is over and Jerusalem is no longer the target city, I will end the Jihad. Even you, Swampy should realize that my Jihad is being used for self-defense rather than actually attacking the objective. Wasn't this the reason we agreed to a ceasefire after the War of Retribution was done (and as I like to tirelessly remind, that you betrayed the cease-fire anyway)?

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-23-2009 @ 09:22 AM).]

SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 23 October 2009 09:28 EDT (US)     896 / 1439       
ahh, but I never regarded you to be honouring any ceasefire anyway (indeed if I recall correctly then you said that you'd been just using it as a pause to build up your forces and were just getting into position to attack having been unable to before...) so I don't think there wasn't anything to betray and your war didn't seem to be over at all.
I can even show you emails where I said you shouldn't trust me because I didn't trust you :0)
Well, one at least anyway.

Besides, the 'war of retribution' was only after Venice decided not to attack me in the way you'd been plotting to - having previously given overtones of peace.

I can't remember quite how I got onto that track, but I've no more evidence that you're acting in selfdefence than you have that I'm not. How was Tripoli self defence?

(I'm still not saying "no" to the proposal, just saying you're being a touch one-sided in your analysis)
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 23 October 2009 10:02 EDT (US)     897 / 1439       
I can even show you emails where I said you shouldn't trust me because I didn't trust you
Should I show you that e-mail where I said we can even become allies if you keep your word?
How was Tripoli self defence?
Apparently you are still young. I did that venture to get better bargaining chip for the cease-fire.

More over, it made a great military sense, even if some of you do not see the significance.

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-23-2009 @ 10:06 AM).]

EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 23 October 2009 11:23 EDT (US)     898 / 1439       
Quite, it took me by surprise. By taking tripoli, Sicily will have their 'quota of acceptable demands' taken up by a territory that was theirs a few turns ago. The actual merits of arguing it was self defence is one for philosophers, though.
oh wait, actually maybe it is a good analogy, particularly given Spain's involvement so far
My sneak through the south, debatable. The goading of Turkey into aggressive warfare meant that what I thought was a safe zone when I started my turn wasn't by the time it ended up in Bandito's turn
Yes, Istanbul will be among those which can be taken. Just don't change the name once you acquire it
That's a rather silly thing. I would have to ask in return you would agree to rename Acre Gonzolia.
Perhaps Spain gets Istanbul and Iraklion, England gets Sofia and Nicaea, and Sicily gets Tripoli, and Thessalonika?
Might have to thrash out the exact amongst ourselves, but you can earmark me for only Istanbul if you want

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 23 October 2009 14:54 EDT (US)     899 / 1439       
I'll take it once the jihad ends - I'm not blinking first on that one.

If you want peace, move towards it rather than just jabbering about it. Maybe I'd take the gifting of settlements to Spain and/or England to be sufficient movement towards peace I suppose if the jihad is non-negotiable - but until something drastic happens I'll have to keep on as I am.

So, peace is there if you want it Bandito, just not a free ticket to stamp on me.
el_bandito
Legionary
posted 23 October 2009 22:52 EDT (US)     900 / 1439       
If you want peace, move towards it rather than just jabbering about it.
We only seriously talked about the end of hostilities on this turn and I didn't even play my turn yet. What else I am suppose to do but to "talk" about peace? Send the turn already.
Maybe I'd take the gifting of settlements to Spain and/or England to be sufficient movement towards peace I suppose if the jihad is non-negotiable - but until something drastic happens I'll have to keep on as I am.
I have no idea what you meant by this. Are you agreeing to the peace terms? I think by the looks of it, England and Spain is OK with it so far.

How about this: Since Spain is satisfied with Istanbul only, I shall modify the peace plan somewhat. I will retain Iraklion, but in return, Sicily can have Corinth and a turn later, Durazzo. In effect, Sicily is getting FOUR territories from me (Thessalonica, Tripoli and the above two).

Finally, I think peace should come as soon as possible. Since my turn is always last, how about on the next turn all of you abandon the Crusade and I abandon the Jihad (all my Jihading troops in addition will be disbanded without exception)? Since it will be on the same turn, it is fair.

PS: 900th post get!

Michael Jackson

[This message has been edited by el_bandito (edited 10-23-2009 @ 11:00 PM).]

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