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Topic Subject:Ruling the Western Mediterranean: Carthage Strategies and Opening Moves
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 04 September 2010 09:37 EDT (US)         
Ruling the Western Mediterranean: Carthage Strategies and Opening Moves
By Primus Julius

Partly because of the fact that it takes only three turns to get a navy from Rome to Carthage, the Carthaginians are usually one of the first factions to get destroyed or reduced to a single settlement. The first time I played, as the House of Julii, I had to destroy their last settlement on the Balearic Isles (Palma) to eliminate them completely. This guide ensures that you won’t fall before the might of Rome.

This guide was written based on playing the harder and easier difficulty levels. The instructions in this guide can be used on all difficulty levels and this guide mentions some points where the easier difficulty levels may have different things happen than the harder difficulty levels do. This guide also does not tell you exactly what to build or recruit (except in certain cases) to enhance game play freedom. Some players, particularly beginners, could follow this guide and lose because of Carthage’s proximity to Rome. However, you need to either play at least a partial campaign to play as Carthage, or download a mod to make it playable, or edit descr_strat yourself, so I leave some building choices open to players.

Objectives:

•To set up a comfortable economy in the Western Mediterranean.
•To get a second foothold in Spain and control more of Africa.
•To prepare for the evident invasion of the House of Scipii.

Step by Step Guide:

First Turn:

•Carthage

oBuild roads. If you’re confident in your economy-building abilities or want a bit more of a challenge, build the Cavalry Stables for elephants. Having elephants will win you more victories in the early campaign, but roads will get you more money. Keep in mind that the Cavalry Stables cost 2400 denarii, so you won’t be able to build structures in other towns.
oRecruit either Iberian Infantry or Round Shield Cavalry to help with your coming conquest of Numidia and the rest of Northern Africa.
oCarthage starts as one of the largest and most developed cities on the map, and is increasing in size rapidly enough so that you should be able to set taxes fairly high and still get 5%-6% growth rate.

•Lilybaeum

oBy your fifth turn, you want roads, a port, and a shrine to Milqart in this settlement. Build them in whatever order you choose.
oRecruit a diplomat because you want an alliance with either the Romans or the Greeks on Sicily.
oLater in the campaign, if you manage to keep Lilybaeum, you can be raking in 2500+ denarii per turn from its sea and land trade. Put taxes to as high as is feasible.

•Thapsus/Corduba

oBuild Wooden Palisades to protect these cities from attack. Spain and Gaul will both try for Corduba, and it will be nice to have a wall in Thapsus if the Numidians or later Egyptians attack (not likely, but it’s worth the 400 denarii.
oRecruit town militia in Corduba. In Thapsus, recruiting a garrison force, like peasants or town militia, will allow you next turn to move your cavalry and better infantry to help with conquering.
oThapsus isn’t worth much, but it serves as another trade outlet and an alarm system in case invaders land further south. Once the Scipii landed southeast of Thapsus and took it in a surprise attack while I was attacking Messana and Numidia simultaneously. I lost Carthage soon after, crippling my empire. Once your economy is capable, put a half dozen light infantry, cavalry, and missile units here to help. If you take Lepcis Magna to the southeast, then split the garrison between it and Thapsus.

•Palma/Caralis

oBuild whatever economical structure you like in Palma. It’s far enough away from everything that the AI won’t pay attention to it, and by the time it does, Carthage should belong to Rome and you would probably give up.
oCaralis is a city that you can use to manipulate the Greeks. Build a barracks there to resist the Julii when they come. You will see how we will defend this settlement later in the guide.

•Military Movements

oI recommend moving the spy you have on Sicily to a vantage point where you can see the Syracusans and the Scipii. I find that if you move to one of the various points on the east coast of Sicily, you can see both cities.

oSend unnecessary units from Thapsus to Carthage. Move Hanno's army on Sicily to the northeastern corner of your territory on Sicily, Sicilia Poeni. Build a watchtower there to help the spy watch the Romans. Repeat with the southeastern corner of the same map.



oMove all of the biremes you start with (two near Carthage, one near Lilybaeum) to the north of Caralis. These will be intercepting and hopefully sinking Julii navies. Over time send them all the way north to the Julii harbor if necessary, destroying the Julii fleet there.



oMove your family member in Palma to a spot on the island and recruit the Balearic slingers if you have the cash. These are the BEST slingers in the game, so get them whenever available. Write yourself a note to check every five or six years (10 or so turns) to see if you have any available for hire.

oMove the general in Corduba, plus both of the Round Shield Cavalry there, to the northernmost tip of your territory. Build a watchtower there to spy on the Spanish and Gauls. Move back next turn when finished.



You should have spent around 4500 denarii, including the slingers, so your cash is running low. Turn up taxes to high or very high in all settlements, but make sure none of your settlements revolt. You will lose your cities when you’re good and ready, but hopefully never.

Second Turn:

You should have noticed some Greek and Roman movements on Sicily. Don’t worry unless you are actually attacked. If the Romans attack you, you’re out of luck, because the Romans are coming before you are ready. If the Greeks attack you, all is not lost. But it will be harder to defend Caralis.

•Carthage

oBuild Sewers in Carthage. Later in the game, a plague strikes Carthage and Lilybaeum. You need to do everything you can to reduce the losses in that plague.
oRecruit a bireme. This will transport Hanno and his elephants on Sicily to Caralis to defend it (once he completes the two watchtowers).
oMove the forces from Thapsus the rest of the way into Carthage.

•Lilybaeum

oBuild a port, roads, or a shrine to Milqart. Temples to Milqart increase trade income.
oMove your diplomat towards the Greeks.
oHave your spy perform a mission on something with 100% chance of success to gain him some free experience. There might be a Greek army nearby that’s fair game.

•Thapsus/Corduba

oBuild roads or a port in each.
oTurn taxes up a notch in Thapsus if feasible.
oRecruit a unit of town militia in Corduba.

•Military Movements

oFinish building the watchtowers on Sicily with Hanno's army, and then move him and his elephants onto the navy nearby, while the rest of his army fortifies Lilybaeum.
oOnce you sink the Julii navy, one of your biremes should absorb all of the losses and set out to Palma to transport Balearic Slingers (the best slingers in the game) to Numidia. The rest of the biremes (the one with the most experience besides the Palma bireme (should blockade the Julii port for the time being. On the lower difficulty levels sinking single biremes that come out of this harbor shouldn't be a problem. If other Roman fleets attack you, they're wasting their time, don't worry about it.

In between the second and third turns you may be approached by a Greek diplomat. Get a trade agreement and an alliance, and get them to buy your map info for about 1500 denarii. DO NOT GIVE THEM CARALIS NOW! You still have a garrison to move.

Third Turn:

•Carthage

oThe Time has come to control Numidia! Use Hasdrubal with the Numidian Cavalry, two Iberian Infantry, and two Round Shield Cavalry to proceed westward. You may see small Numidian armies en route. Ignore these as the force at Carthage is enough to handle them if they get closer.
oRecruit a bireme to help with repelling Roman fleets.

•Lilybaeum

oRecruit some of the mercenaries here if you have the cash (after doing everything else mentioned).
oKeep building the structures mentioned.

•Caralis

oUse your diplomat on Sicily to sell Caralis to the Greeks, or give it to them if they won’t pay for it. If they don't accept your lovely gift (this only happens on the higher difficulties) then you need to defend it without the help of rebel forces. Don’t move the ships near Caralis or the town militia/peasant garrison yet, except the ships should try to sink Julii navies. Wait and see if Caralis revolts again.

•Thapsus

oIf you completed roads this turn, build a port.

•Corduba

oBuild a Shrine to Baal to keep this settlement from revolting. You will be almost evacuating it soon.
oRecruit a unit of town militia.

•Palma

oThe ship that was coming here should arrive this turn or possibly next turn. Whenever it comes, load all three units of Balearic Slingers onto it and send the ship due south. This will meet up with Hasdrubal’s army coming from Carthage and attack the cities of Cirta and Tingi.
oContinue building economic structures in Palma. A shrine to Milqart wouldn’t go amiss either.

•Military Movements:

oMove all forces on Sicily except your diplomat into Lilybaeum. Your diplomat should move towards the Romans now.
oAttack Gaul or Spain using your army in Corduba. Adjust your taxes and take either the settlement to the east or north. Recruit the mercenaries if you wish.
In between the third and fourth turns, Rome and Greece may attack each other, Numidia may attack your invasion force, or Spain could turn up in your path near Corduba. If any of these events cripples your strategy, recruit new armies and try again. Try not to lose any of your settlements.

Fourth Turn:


•Carthage


oBuild a shipwright to aid in your Roman-navy-sinking maneuvers.
oContinue moving Hasdrubal’s army westward.

•Lilybaeum

oKeep building economical structures to make it so you have roads, a port, and a shrine to Milqart at the beginning of your next turn.

•Corduba/Thapsus

oBuild Land Clearance in Corduba if you can afford it. This generates quite a bit of income. If you finished a port in Thapsus this turn, build roads.
oContinue to move your army toward its destination.

•Caralis

oCaralis may have revolted back into your hands. Now you have a choice. You can send all of the spawned units to the rest of your cities using navies to protect them, but they are just peasants and town militia, so they rout easily. The second choice is to use the new garrison force to defend it. There should be a dozen units that have spawned there on the easier difficulty levels, and they could be upgraded if you’re on the easiest. Also, there are several other advantages to trying to keep Caralis.
oThe first advantage is that it costs you almost nothing. At this stage your economy can afford to put out the extra 1000 denarii to keep around a half-stack army. You would have to recruit those town militia and peasants yourself, which would be time-consuming and costly, like about another 1500-2000 denarii.
oThe second advantage is that you can probably make up that amount, or at least some of it, by building economical structures to increase the trade income of the city.
oIf you choose to keep Caralis for the income, build something there, like a wooden palisade, first, to keep out invaders. Then next turn start in on the economic structures.
oIf you choose to spread the armies to your other cities, do so with the navies you have there. Your Palma-bound navy may be just a little bit away, so load troops for Corduba and Palma on the same navy, and use that navy to drop off troops on the Palma-bound navy. Troops for Carthage, Thapsus, and Lilybaeum can be on the same ship as they are pretty much on the same path.

•Military Movements

oIf you choose not to keep Caralis, use your biremes to transport the troops around and use your diplomat on Sicily to give it back to the Greeks. If the Greeks won't accept it, make sure you don't have any military units on the island or in the town, and the biremes are a little bit away from the island, and try again. If the Greeks still won't take it, you can try to give it to the Scipii in exchange for an alliance/trade rights/both. The settlement may or may not revolt again, but if it does, let it revolt to the rebels.

oIf you choose to keep Caralis, move Hanno on the biremes into the town to help defend it. His command stars will pay off if the battle joins there.


Fifth Turn:


•Lilybaeum

oBuild a military structure in Lilybaeum, like a practice range or stables. This will help you defend your settlement from the Romans when the time comes.

•Corduba/Thapsus

oBuild mines if you can afford it in Corduba, and a military structure in Thapsus, like a practice range or stables.


•Caralis


oBuild economic structures if you still keep it.

•Military Movements

oIf you’ve been moving in the right directions, you should be able to siege or assault Cirta and Carthago Nova, in Numidia and Spain, respectively. Have your Balearic slingers land just north of Cirta to join your army next turn for the assault.

Well, there you have it. You have built a growing economy in the Mediterranean Sea, started building military buildings in Sicily and Africa, and all but gained a territory in Spain and Africa. Between turns Numidia may sally out and attack your army besieging Cirta, so destroy them. Be sure to lead the battle yourself, as Numidia starts out with a great general, about 8-9 stars if defending, which he is. Your Balearic slingers can join up with your army when you march westwards again (the next settlement is all the way to the west, near the Strait of Gibraltar). You should be able to beat the Spanish in Carthago Nova, and if you're proficient at it, fight the battle yourself to reduce casualties.

From this point you can go in many directions. I suggest for the time being holding on to Corduba and Carthago Nova because Spain and Gaul will overwhelm you if you try to control the whole Iberian Peninsula. As for Numidia, I suggest taking Tingi near the Strait of Gibraltar because it is far out of the way, and it also connects you to the Iberian Peninsula with a short boat ride. This way you can either expand south and later east towards Egypt, or you can send your Numidian army north into Spain to help fortify your position or eliminate the Spaniards.

You can use your diplomat on Sicily to try to get an alliance with the Romans until they take Syracuse, but eventually they will siege Lilybaeum and attack Carthage. Your expansion should stop at this point while you drive back and conquer the Scipii in Messana on Sicily. Your diplomat can then take a 4 turn boat ride to the Greeks or Seleucids, or possibly the Scythians up north or the Germans/Britons in the other direction.

Either way, I hope that you got good advice from this guide, that you weren't eliminated, and you have a good idea of where to go next.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.

[This message has been edited by Primus Julius (edited 09-17-2010 @ 01:43 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 04 September 2010 09:50 EDT (US)     1 / 38       
Pretty good, no mistakes that I can see, although it looks like every sentence starts with an 'o'.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 04 September 2010 10:27 EDT (US)     2 / 38       
i've read about half, pretty comprehensive.

just curious, how long did this take you to write?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 04 September 2010 11:50 EDT (US)     3 / 38       
Nice guide, although it has already been done


But let's see what Edorix or Terikel think.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 04 September 2010 12:36 EDT (US)     4 / 38       
To Liam the Spartan:
It's a bullet point. I wrote it in Word.

To GeneralKickAss:
About 3 hours including playing on all the difficulties. I'm a fast clicker and typer.

To Punic Hoplite:
The other one I tested out and found that it was difficult to follow and sometimes it didn't work. I did everything they said and the next turn after the Scipii attacked Lilybaeum, the Julii sank my fleets, and a couple of turns later Carthage was taken.

Thanks for your comments, I can't wait to see it on the website.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.
Liam_the_Spartan
Banned
posted 04 September 2010 12:47 EDT (US)     5 / 38       
IF it goes on the website. Probably will but gotta see if Edorix/terikel think it's better than the old one.
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 04 September 2010 13:03 EDT (US)     6 / 38       
The old one can stay. I don't care. As long as mine goes up, it has a different focus then the old one, which focuses on getting as many military units as possible. The other one was also not tested on all of the difficulty levels for beginners' sake.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 04 September 2010 13:11 EDT (US)     7 / 38       
Although we do already have one, I would say (and I think Terikel would agree with me) that it would be a crying shame to see this much work and useful info go to waste. I have only yet skimmed over it, but there seems to be nothing glaringly obviously wrong with it.

We can always just call it "Carthage Alternative Opening Moves" or something. Personally I don't currently see any real reason it shouldn't go up. I will of course have to test it. It would be useful if anyone else who has the time could do the same so we can compare notes.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-04-2010 @ 04:38 PM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 September 2010 00:13 EDT (US)     8 / 38       
hm.. hey Edorix (and Primus) i think i can help test it tonight. Been looking to start a new campaign some time anyway. Will probably start with an H/H first, and i shall post my thoughts here asap.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 05 September 2010 05:10 EDT (US)     9 / 38       
I understand that this was intended for people just starting out, Primus; but I have just tested it twice, once on M and the other on VH, and my verdict is not positive. Both times I was successful in capturing Cirta and Carthago Nova, but collapsed in either Sicily or North Africa against the Romans. On VH, also, the Greeks could not be convinced to take Caralis from me, and didn't pay me a diplomatic visit between turn 2 and 3, which ultimately your timing relied on. In that game I ended up having to ship over a general from Carthage to rescue Sardinia - personally I think its trade potential is worth keeping. On VH I also found myself very short of money practically from the word go, which is not a problem I usually find myself facing as Carthage. Also on VH, on the sixth turn the Brutii landed a huge invasion force right next to the vulnerable Thapsus.

All our other opening moves guides have been tried and tested on all difficulty levels. That is why our current Carthage one is there. In my experience this one simply does not. I shall test it again tomorrow, and maybe General Kick-Ass will also have some results to offset this, but if this is to go up it needs some serious revising. Personally I think our current Carthage opening moves guide is good enough, although alternatives such as this are of course welcome.

When I play as Carthage, I usually focus on beating the Romans out of Sicily as soon as possible; aggressive tactics seem to work best in Carthage's opening turns. Maybe you could try a more aggressive strategy for an alternative opening moves guide? At any rate, to me it looks like this needs serious revising if it is to go up.

Oh, a few screenies from the VH campaign:

Turn 3, the Julii invade Sardinia, which try as I might to give away, the Greeks refuse to accept. They're both hastati by the way and I have only a unit of peasants and one of town militia, no palisade and no reinforcements in sight.



Battle outside Cirta:



Battle in the North of Sardinia::


• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-05-2010 @ 05:36 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 September 2010 09:41 EDT (US)     10 / 38       
Hey Primus, I have also tested your guide, and I must say, it could definitely be made more...comprehensive than it is now. A few main points below:

**Extreme Harshness Alert**

The major flaw in this strategy set concerns the management of Caralis. In the beginning you suggested a set of maneuvers designed to hand it over ultimately, and so not much was built or recruited in Sardinia - what if the player later decides to KEEP it instead of distributing the newly spawned units around? The lack of early activity in Caralis will set things back in the region's development by several turns. In short, I think it is better to tell the player the potential danger of a Julian invasion, then ask the player to make the decision of keeping or abandoning it. You can then continue by giving separate sets of guidelines, 1 for keeping, the other for abandoning Caralis.

The management of the "given" 2-bireme fleet near Carthage also has a problem. If it is used as an interceptor, then I can assume you're planning on engaging any approaching Roman fleet with it, so why bother loading the town militia onto it to risk it sinking along with the fleet in the case of a defeat? (wow that rhymes)

Same with Edorix, I have had no trouble taking down Cirta and New Carthage, and the 3 units of B. Slingers arriving from Palma were great help in capturing Tingi. I did not encounter Numidian field armies on my way to Cirta on H/H, and by the sixth turn my African heartland was under no visible threat from any direction at all. Caralis was under siege by 2 Hastati though. The Greeks, same as in Edorix's VH/VH, would not take it as a gift. The 2-bireme fleet was staying right below Caralis as you suggested, which allowed the Julian army to land with ease.

On Sicily, it is a solid stalemate - no hostilities between me and Rome or Greece, but the Scipii did blockade Syracuse's port. Lilibaeum was sound and safe so far and Hanno rots within its walls, along with his formidable army - some of which he could have sent to help defend Caralis.

Alright, long story short, economy-wise this guide does what it says - I am indeed raking in around 3000 denarii each in turn 4 and 5. Military-wise, you really need to rethink the Caralis question. Maybe after all Hanno's initial army could be put to better use by marching east on the Greeks or Romans, or split up and spread between Lilybaeum and Caralis (which i like to do). The starting 2-bireme-near-Carthage fleet could also be better positioned, maybe nearer to Corsica to halt the Romans in their tracks.

That's all for now, feel free to ask me anything else you think I should specify. I am off to play some more Carthage now.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-05-2010 @ 09:48 AM).]

Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 05 September 2010 09:47 EDT (US)     11 / 38       
Well....

I tried it on Medium twice and both times it worked out with the Greeks and Julii, and I was able to sink a Julii navy full of units, which I expected people to do since they have a navy next to Sardinia.

You need to get an alliance with the Greeks. If they don't approach you (which the should...) then you can negotiate an alliance and trade rights before giving them the city. The Greeks aren't going to accept Caralis if you don't have trade rights and an alliance, and then they still might not accept it. That's why I tell you to GIVE it to them if it doesn't work. The Julii attacked you, so the Scipii automatically need to attack you as well. That's why Carthage is so delicate.

On Very Hard this guide may start to lose accuracy because the AI can do whatever it wants with the 10,000 denarii a turn it gets. So it can be producing its top units in both of its cities while you are struggling to recruit garrisoning forces in all 5 of your cities.

The Roman Factions can spend 2500 denarii per city on the first turn, while Carthage can only put around 1000 denarii to each of its five cities. I mention in the guide that defending Thapsus with town militia is good, and that if you're attacked by the Romans to stop expansion, to put your units back into Carthage.

So, Edorix, please read the guide fully this time because I put a lot of detail into what could happen.

I am sorry GeneralsKickAss, but I was posting this as you were posting yours. I am editing it now.

I am glad that you had an easier time than Edorix as far as economy, Sicily, and Thapsus goes. I shall edit the strategy guide to include discussing keeping or gifting Caralis. Do you have any other suggestions?

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.

[This message has been edited by Primus Julius (edited 09-05-2010 @ 09:51 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 September 2010 09:57 EDT (US)     12 / 38       
You need to get an alliance with the Greeks. If they don't approach you (which the should...) then you can negotiate an alliance and trade rights before giving them the city. The Greeks aren't going to accept Caralis if you don't have trade rights and an alliance, and then they still might not accept it. That's why I tell you to GIVE it to them if it doesn't work.
i have set up trade rights, an alliance in the previous turn before trying to gift them Caralis, on H/H. Failed. Perhaps the chances are 50/50?

Right, so I might have forgotten to use the 2-bireme fleet to sink Romans :O) sorry..

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 05 September 2010 10:05 EDT (US)     13 / 38       
You can always try again. It doesn't take as long to play as it does to write the guide for it.

I have edited the topic post to include the revisions you have asked for. Read again to double-check my work.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 05 September 2010 10:20 EDT (US)     14 / 38       
So, Edorix, please read the guide fully this time because I put a lot of detail into what could happen.
I read the guide thoroughly twice directly before I tested with the guide still at my fingertips following it to the letter. But the eventualities simply hadn't been calculated. There are many things I would have done differently - at one point, I was forced to, by shipping over the family member from Carthage to Sardinia because the Greeks refused to accept it and I wasn't about to just let it fall by siege to the Julii while it was still in my possession. That would defeat the whole point.

I am aware that you put a lot of detail into some eventualities; but you did not allow for the Greeks not accepting Caralis, which ultimately avoiding war with Rome hinges on. Personally I would keep Caralis and defend it with a general and just a handful of units so I continue to get its income from trade, which is vital on VH.

I did not see the Brutii coming. Cirta would have been under siege by the time they were out in the middle of the Ionian, far from my line of sight. They landed the turn I captured Cirta. How then do I get those forces - which aren't very significant- all the way back the four turn match to Thapsus in time to keep it?

It is probably safe to assume that in most cases the Brutii will not invade Byzacium, true. But this guide simply does not work for VH like the other guides do. In case I didn't make it clear before, it does indeed work for Medium.

Following your guide to the letter meant keeping the two biremes next to Caralis. You said so explicitly. How could they then sink the Julii fleet? Besides, since the Julii also start with two biremes, how can you guarantee that they will be able to sink them? Certainly on the harder difficulties every time they get a clear defeat.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 September 2010 10:28 EDT (US)     15 / 38       
Frankly, my personal set of strategies for Carthage differs in many ways with yours. I prefer turtling up in North Africa and pumping out new units in Carthage and Thapsus to send to Sicily and Caralis to consolidate my presence there. This guide of yours does reasonably fulfil the economic promise, but there is some degree of wastage/idleness of military resources in Sicily and over-extension in Africa (Hasdrubal leaving Burrhus with pure town militia garrisons in both cities don't look good to me).

May I suggest adding watchtower placement instructions, like putting a tower north of Corduba in the 1st turn to spot incoming Spanish/Gallic surprises - which provides some peace-of-mind when you move Theophanes out to take Carthgo Nova - and putting another one in northern Sicilia Poeni, since the spy on Sicily can't be everywhere at once.
Quoted from Edorix:
Following your guide to the letter meant keeping the two biremes next to Caralis. You said so explicitly. How could they then sink the Julii fleet? Besides, since the Julii also start with two biremes, how can you guarantee that they will be able to sink them? Certainly on the harder difficulties every time they get a clear defeat.
I was gonna point this out, but he did say "they will be intercepting Julii navies" or something like that. However he also asked to keep the 2 biremes near Caralis with the town militia loaded - which puzzles me because why would the fleet need a useless unit of T militia on board to sink Roman fleets?

And Primus, about the 2 vs 2 bireme issue, on harder difficulties I think you'll have to switch - move the Lilybaeum fleet northwards instead of Palma-wards to ensure at least a FIRST sinking of the 2 Roman Biremes. Agree?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-05-2010 @ 10:48 AM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 05 September 2010 15:18 EDT (US)     16 / 38       
That means no Balearics would reach Numidia though, which would incline me to call off the whole Numidian expedition and use the forces in Carthage to help defend in the West/capture Sicily. Which actually works out quite well. Since the guide involves building a port at Corduba too, the slingers from Palma could be sent to Spain instead.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

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(dis ma house)
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 06 September 2010 08:36 EDT (US)     17 / 38       
Both of you bring up very good points. I will edit the guide to include what should happen if the Greeks don't accept Caralis. Maybe you abandon Numidia or Carthago Nova?

I will also edit the guide to include building three watchtowers: one to the north of Corduba to spy on Spain and Gaul, one in the southeastern corner of Sicilia Poeni to watch the Greeks, and another in the northeastern corner of Sicilia Poeni to help watch the Romans.

I have deleted the part about the town militia on the navy. Now the town militia and the peasants in Caralis stay there.

I don't really know what to write if the Greeks don't accept Caralis. However, neither does the other Carthage guide; we both depend on the Greeks taking it from us.

The changes are now posted.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.

[This message has been edited by Primus Julius (edited 09-06-2010 @ 08:46 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 September 2010 09:01 EDT (US)     18 / 38       
oMove one unit of biremes of the fleet of biremes you start with near Carthage near Palma. You will use it to transport slingers. The other bireme in this fleet should move to the south or east of Caralis. This fleet will intercept Julii navies. Move the fleet of biremes that starts near Lilybaeum (including Hanno and the elephants) towards Caralis.
So still sticking with the Palma - Numidia approach, Primus? hm... I'm just thinking about how two separate biremes arriving near Sardinia on different time schedules can be depended on to turn the 2 Roman biremes back...

If it was up to me, I'll send all three given biremes north at first - the Lilybaeum one to transport Hanno & the elephants to Caralis before going north as well - to fend off that 1ST Roman double-bireme fleet. With those 2 biremes defeated, you could just merge and re-merge your three biremes so that 1 will bear all the casualties while the other 2 go back to full numbers. Send that 1 depleted bireme unit back south to retrain at Carthage, then send it westwards to execute your Palma - Numidia strategy.

While these moves inevitably set your Numidian conquests back by several turns I do think they would make the overall campaign war effort more sustainable. What do you think?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-06-2010 @ 10:31 AM).]

Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 08 September 2010 20:29 EDT (US)     19 / 38       
I planted the change you suggested, General, and now I believe that after around a dozen edits this article is ready. I included a change of my own as well. By blockading the Julii port on the west side, you can sink any one-man fleets that come out of it with your blockading fleet immediately so they don't build a huge fleet to attack yours. The port on the east side can generate biremes too, but I am assuming that the AI still can't teleport navies over the Italian peninsula, even on the hardest difficulty level.

Even Edorix has admitted it works on Medium, which means it works on Easy. This implies that this guide is good for starting players, which is what we're supposed to write the guides for anyway. I was just bored and I wrote down what I did as Carthage and transferred it to Word and then to this site.

I move that this guide is ready to post on the site.

Also, has anyone tried it on HARD???
It would be interesting to see whether it works on Hard, but I doubt it. The Brutii will probably invade Thapsus again, and probably the Julii navy might not be so nice to Carthaginian boats.

We'll have to see...I might be able to test the guide on hard...

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.

[This message has been edited by Primus Julius (edited 09-08-2010 @ 08:36 PM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 08 September 2010 21:53 EDT (US)     20 / 38       
Also, has anyone tried it on HARD???
All my feedback and suggestions are based on H/H difficulty

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 09 September 2010 19:55 EDT (US)     21 / 38       
Sorry I thought that you were using VH/VH difficulty. Most people on here are doing so.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 10 September 2010 14:05 EDT (US)     22 / 38       
I move that this guide is ready to post on the site.
Barely any guides/articles go up within a mere week of posting. A little patience; your guide will no doubt go up, but let's make it as good as possible. I do not want to spend my time coding a guide that I think can still be significantly improved first.

I will have time to test it with tyour adjustments this weekend. I would have done it sooner but RL has been a nightmare (first week of sixth form and all). As for the VH issue, I shall see what Terikel thinks about opening moves guides difficulty levels, but I think your argument is sound and it'll be okay - although we will have to make the proviso that it doesn't work on the harder difficulties (if iy doesn't work on the harder difficulties obviously, even after the changes you've made).

EDIT: Okay Primus, after another couple of tests it still looks to me like on Easy and Medium your strategy does work, although on Hard the economy does not seem to develop so nicely. Your revisions have made significant improvements. I am not quite ready to invoke the two-day rule just yet.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
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(dis ma house)

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-11-2010 @ 05:07 AM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 14 September 2010 11:53 EDT (US)     23 / 38       
I remember why I was stalling: pics! An opening moves guide needs pics!

If not, I'm ready to invoke the two-day rule.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 15 September 2010 09:18 EDT (US)     24 / 38       
Yeah some nice screenies showing bits of the campaign map at key points within the first few turns would complete this guide.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 09-15-2010 @ 09:18 AM).]

Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 15 September 2010 16:27 EDT (US)     25 / 38       
It won't take a print screen. I press the Prt Scr/SysRq key and I can't find the pictures anywhere. Anti-Aliasing is off and I can't figure out how to do it.

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.

[This message has been edited by Primus Julius (edited 09-15-2010 @ 04:50 PM).]

Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 15 September 2010 17:47 EDT (US)     26 / 38       
Either go to your .tgas file in your Data fold I believe, and convert them to .jpeg or whatever, or ctrl alt delete out of Rome, and paste them (it only does most recent) into a program like Microsoft Paint.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 16 September 2010 01:03 EDT (US)     27 / 38       
Here (among other things) is a guide to taking and posting screenies (don't worry about posting, you don't need to, just send them to me).

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
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(dis ma house)

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-16-2010 @ 01:04 AM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 16 September 2010 01:55 EDT (US)     28 / 38       
You can try Fraps. Its freeware, easy to install (I did it by myself!! ), and works great.

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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 16 September 2010 19:45 EDT (US)     29 / 38       


Does this work?

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 17 September 2010 00:53 EDT (US)     30 / 38       
No. There is a simpler way, and there is no way you need three and a half lines of code. You already have the link to what you need, don't make things difficult for yourself.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-17-2010 @ 00:57 AM).]

Primus Julius
Legionary
posted 17 September 2010 11:00 EDT (US)     31 / 38       
okay

Caesar: No, I am NOT coming to the celebration. I need to stay home and spend time with my wife!

Decimus: But Caesar, they'll give you a crown if you come!

Caesar: OH! I go to the senate. I want a salad.

[This message has been edited by Primus Julius (edited 09-17-2010 @ 08:10 PM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 17 September 2010 13:37 EDT (US)     32 / 38       
There we go, nice work.

So where do you want them in the article? And send the originals to me by email so I can upload them to the gallery as well, otherwise they come out crap. We don't like crap screenies.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 22 September 2010 09:22 EDT (US)     33 / 38       
You've put all three together in the middle? Can you not space them out a bit? Say, one for each most important event per turn?

Also, send me the originals by email (edorix@heavengames.com) so I can put them up. Downloading from an independent host and then reuploading ruins the quality.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 25 September 2010 03:11 EDT (US)     34 / 38       
As you wish...

Two-day rule now in effect.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
Belthronding
Legionary
(id: Orcrist_Beleg)
posted 30 September 2010 14:22 EDT (US)     35 / 38       

I prefer a naval rush on Rome (both Scipii and Julii). it is expensive but A) you start off with the best navy building capabilities in the Western Mediterranean. If it works, you will easily be able to control Sicily and Caralis. and you might even be able to sink a few boatloads of Roman armies


one more note. in the beginning i prefer to build the temples that increase farming output (its early and i cant remember the name). because they bring you more cash until you have a nice sea trade network set up. then make the switch to Milquart.
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 19 August 2013 02:56 EDT (US)     36 / 38       
I know this is an old one, but I think it's about time it goes up. If anyone has last-minute changes, additions, or comments, please do so shortly; I'll be putting this on the site in about 12 hours.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius
posted 19 August 2013 16:01 EDT (US)     37 / 38       
It's now been posted.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 20 August 2013 06:06 EDT (US)     38 / 38       
Sorry about that.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
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