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Dark Ages: Roman Revival
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Topic Subject:The Copts
Zardozhotep
Legionary
(id: Kahotep)
posted 06 September 2010 23:42 EDT (US)         
In 500 AD, Egypt is still under Eastern Roman control, but despite having adopted the Empire's Christian religion and rejected much of their pagan heritage, the Egyptian people are not exactly on good terms with their Byzantine overlords. The problem is that while the Byzantine orthodoxy teaches that Jesus Christ had two equal natures, a divine one and a human one, the Egyptian Coptic church prefers to think of the Savior as having one single nature with dual aspects. For what would appear to be a trivial theological detail, the Byzantines have ruthlessly persecuted the Copts, closing their churches and exiling, torturing, or even killing them. This has fueled the Coptic people's rage to the point of rebellion, but as they resist their Roman oppressors, the dust clouds of those bringing a new religion appear on the eastern horizon...

As an emergent rebel faction, the Copts specialize in guerrilla warfare tactics, with speed and agility being their best assets. On the downside, their armor is relatively weak.

Units
Egyptian Peasants
Rebel Spearmen
Rebel Axemen
Rebel Archers
Rebel Horsemen
Rebel Camels
Rebel Bodyguard
Coptic Priest

Other people's ideas are welcome.

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AuthorReplies:
Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 06 September 2010 23:55 EDT (US)     1 / 28       
So the Copts would emerge after a successful revolt in a Eastern Roman settlement in Egypt right?

And maybe change the unit names? Rebel (insert unit here) is a tad dry

And maybe add Bedouins to their roster in place of Camels? Or should we leave them as a mercenary (if they still are for that matter)

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 September 2010 02:02 EDT (US)     2 / 28       
It could be like this... What we originally had in mind was more of a rebellion led by a general to split off rich Egypt from the ERE, as the game mechanics would give the ERE an overwhelming and insurmountable advantage as by this time the whole of the Eastern Med was in Byzantine hands. Splitting off one of the richest parts into its own realm was the solution we came up with to prevent that. Using what you wrote would have more appeal, though. People still slaughter each other in fights over whose god is bigger and better.

There were originally three schools of Christian thought- Catholic (Rome), Orthodox (Antioch) and Coptic (Alexandria). Each had their own ways, and each tried to influence the Empire to follow its ways. It was a stroke of luck for the Catholics that the incoming barbarians took up Catholicism, or it would have died along with the Western Empire. The Copts of Alexandria lost influence when Alexandria fell, giving Orthodoxy free reign in the east and settling that question.

(I find it amusing that two of the three centers of early Christian doctrine and thought are in lands that are no longer Christian.)

I would edit your OP, Kahotep, to avoid the Copts being guerrillas. They would have many of the same units as the ERE, with some native changes. But making them all guerrilla makes them easy meat for the Desert Hordes coming once Mohammed returns from his mountain and is heard... Then again, maybe that is what is needed to defeat the light horsemen and their tulwars and scimitars...

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EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 07 September 2010 04:43 EDT (US)     3 / 28       
There were originally three schools of Christian thought
Well, with many splitting about if he has three natures, two heads, impressive abs or an impressive manhood...

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 September 2010 05:51 EDT (US)     4 / 28       
If they are an emergent faction, how are they intended to emerge? I can think of a few ways:
1) As a horde spawned by an event
2) Scripting (well, I assume this is possible, but frankly I'm hoping the plan is to avoid scripts where possible)
3) As a 'shadow faction' of the ERE, like the ERER in vanilla BI
4) As a spawned_on_revolt faction, like the Ostrogoths. I think this limits them to emerging only once, unlike the ERER/WRER.

The trick to the latter two is obviously to tweak unrest levels around Egypt, so that the Copts emerge there, not elsewhere.

My preference would be 4, I think, provided spawned_on_revolt works as I understand it.

As for units, I'd go for largely Roman, with maybe a few references to Vanilla Egyptian units (they were fun, but horribly historically innaccurate!).
Seeing the faction leader as a Pharaoh, with the legions dressed somewhat like the Argyraspid legionaries of XGM, but bronze, plus some Nubians mercenaries thrown in would be fun. Call the Legionary First Cohort equivalent Cobra Warriors or such.

...I see this faction as more flexible in terms of fanstasy/historical accuracy, myself. (That is probably quite clear!)

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 September 2010 06:29 EDT (US)     5 / 28       
The original idea was to have them programmed to split off about Turn 3 (this will be variable from turn 1 to 5)- enough time to get them to build up under ERE before popping off on their own. We want enough time for them as their own faction to build up when the Caliphate emerges from the deserts so that they don't go down at once. (The idea in creating them was to limit the opening power of the ERE- which controls a good bit of the map from the very first turn.)

Of course, this is open to discussion. Historically the Copts were a loyal part of the ERE until overrun by the Muslims in the 600's, and still exist today, though they disappeared totally from political power with the loss of Alexandria.

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Zardozhotep
Legionary
(id: Kahotep)
posted 07 September 2010 06:51 EDT (US)     6 / 28       
As for units, I'd go for largely Roman, with maybe a few references to Vanilla Egyptian units (they were fun, but horribly historically innaccurate!).
Seeing the faction leader as a Pharaoh, with the legions dressed somewhat like the Argyraspid legionaries of XGM, but bronze, plus some Nubians mercenaries thrown in would be fun. Call the Legionary First Cohort equivalent Cobra Warriors or such.
Maybe the more Egyptian-esque units could be auxiliaries to the Roman legions? According to the research I've done, it was standard Roman practice to use non-Romans in auxiliary roles while reserving the legions for Roman citizens.

Everything is better with dinosaurs.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 September 2010 07:09 EDT (US)     7 / 28       
That was true up to the point when Caracalla issued his Constitutio Antoniniana in 215, which granted the Roman citizenship to all free men living within the borders of the Empire.

Still, the later Romans hired bands of warriors fighting under their own chiefs and in their own styles as foederati. This concept can easily be translated into Egyptian units based on local warriors and their styles of fighting.

I would not bring back the chariot- as it was dead since the Empire began (too easy to kill in real life), or Pharaoh (Pharaoh had both political and religious overtones- not something a good Coptic Christian would want). But giving the roster some local flavor is a good idea.

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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 September 2010 07:17 EDT (US)     8 / 28       
The Caliphate will emerge in 632, yes? 164 turns ought to be plenty of time to allow some flexibility.

@Kahotep - definitely, the auxiliaries, with more or less Roman 'legions,' but I'd like to see the crême de la crême to bear a New Kingdom like gloss.

We're not talking "Pharaohs Bowmen" or "Egyptian Heavy Chariots," just some auxiliaries equipped with largely white cloth and some bronzed scalemail elite legions with a bit of a scarab/cobra/etc/ thrown on the shield or chestplate.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 September 2010 08:51 EDT (US)     9 / 28       
I would like the Caliphate to emerge at a random time or when a faction has gained more than say, twenty provinces. I don't want it tied to the actual year because very good players could conquer the entire map before they even emerge... So a randomness in the timing will keep the player guessing...

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Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 07 September 2010 10:42 EDT (US)     10 / 28       
Perhaps the full-blown Successor Kingdom revival, with a Ptolomic-inspired roster with Legionaries?

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Rinster
Legionary
posted 07 September 2010 16:07 EDT (US)     11 / 28       
I think that this should be like the Romano-British (in the way of roman influence), but sort of the other way around with roman units being the main army and natives providing support.
@Drakontos- It might be fun to bring back chariot archers just to give the copts a unique and powerful unit
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 September 2010 17:08 EDT (US)     12 / 28       
Ok Terikel, scripted it is... I believe that means that the player will have to manually activate the script a) when the Caliphate ought to be emerging or b) at the beginning of the campaign.

Hmm. I am cautious that giving seemingly pagan-inspired units to a Coptic Christian faction isn't overly easily justified. What to do, what to do, what to do...

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Seneca Monachus
Legionary
posted 08 September 2010 07:47 EDT (US)     13 / 28       
what would be the faction symbol? a coptic cross? a scarab? or a combination of both
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46617 here you can find some skins of Ptolemeic Egypt. Maybe we can use the swordman in front for the Copts?

Code fixed -Edorix

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 09-08-2010 @ 08:07 AM).]

Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 08 September 2010 20:24 EDT (US)     14 / 28       
what would be the faction symbol? a coptic cross? a scarab? or a combination of both
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46617 here you can find some skins of Ptolemeic Egypt. Maybe we can use the swordman in front for the Copts?
I'd definitely go for a golden Coptic cross on a dark red or white background here. I'd rather that we make any units that we use. If we are going to be using units that weren't made for this project, I'd definitely rather we took them from TWH rather than TWC (take it from me, people from TWC can be veeeery strange about giving you permission to use their work in another mod).

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Kilij Ae Varyl
Legionary
(id: AugustusCaesar)
posted 11 September 2010 10:14 EDT (US)     15 / 28       
I think the Revival(reform) units shall bring back the army of the New Kingdom, ex Phalanxes, excellent Bowmen, and only the Archer Chariots. As for triggers, I think either unity of Egypt, or destruction of the ERE.
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 12 September 2010 12:33 EDT (US)     16 / 28       
Given that we are proposing making the Copts a mainly ERE-inspired faction, I would suggest tabling this discussion until we come to the ERE. That way, we can have a bit more continuity between the Copts and their "parent faction".

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 12 September 2010 16:46 EDT (US)     17 / 28       
Could always add in some phalanxes of native units as a unique twist on the Copts, though.

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 12 September 2010 17:19 EDT (US)     18 / 28       
I definitely agree - the Copts need a lot of native units for flavor. It's just that until we have the ERE roster down, we won't know how to modify it to make a Coptic roster - what units to replace, what gaps to fill and to create, etc.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Rinster
Legionary
posted 15 September 2010 13:20 EDT (US)     19 / 28       
so i was thinking if we could change the roster as ideas come in it would make it easier to visualize the faction as a whole, or what it is.


Egyptian Peasants-I suppose this works until we come up with something besides Egyptian
Coptic Zealots-basic swords/spears fighting unit.
Libyan Skirmishers-same as javelin throwing unit of original RTW?
Rebel Axemen-no idea
Desert Archers-nomadic peoples mounted or not, with combat bonus in desert maybe?
Rebel Horsemen-no idea
Rebel Camels-no idea
Rebel Bodyguard- no idea
Coptic Priest-sounds good to me.
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 15 September 2010 14:50 EDT (US)     20 / 28       
Those look good for some regional units, but I really think that we should use the ERE as a base, which means that we'd have to do the ERE roster before we move on to the Copts.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 15 September 2010 15:13 EDT (US)     21 / 28       
So, perhaps link this thread in the agenda, then move onto the next one?

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 15 September 2010 15:27 EDT (US)     22 / 28       
Agreed.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 04 October 2011 01:52 EDT (US)     23 / 28       
Re-opened to be concurrent with ERE, with which the Copts shall have much in common.

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Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 05:19 EDT (US)     24 / 28       
Vanilla ERE/ERER roster:
Peasants
Orthodox Priest
Limitanei
Comitatenses
Legio Lanciarii
Plumbatarii
Comitatenses First Cohort

Archers
Eastern Archers
Carriage Ballistae
Ballistae
Scorpions
Repeating Ballistae
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

Equites Auxilia
Dromedarii
Scholae Palatinae
Equites Catafractarii
Equites Clibinarii
Hippo-toxotai

Biremes
Triremes
Quinquiremes

Imperial Household Bodyguard
Now. Do the Copts emerge later in the game, or start off controlling Egypt and perhaps Palestine, representing a rebellion against the ERE? I personally favour the latter, if for no other reason than making the game easier to balance.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 05:24 EDT (US)     25 / 28       
some more Units:

Siege units
Egyptian cohort (comitatentes like)
Camel archers
Camel swordsman
Camel Spearman
Some nubian and arab units.

No chariots. It would make them more unique, but it doesn't fit the time frame. Same for elephants I think. Only the Timurids later used elephants as far I know, but since the battle of Thapsus (Caesar vs scipio) I can't remember any elephants being used.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 04 October 2011 10:15 EDT (US)     26 / 28       
The original idea was to have the Copts split off ten turns or so into the game to cause the ERE problems and still have time to build up before the Caliphate emerges.

Looking at it from a player point of view, that would probably make it unplayable as you can't choose it from the start menu, and difficult to script as well.

It may be an idea to have them already split off at the beginning. This is an alternate 500 AD after all, for the purist who may cry foul.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 16:03 EDT (US)     27 / 28       
There are provincial campaigns, but I think that's just making it harder on us.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 October 2011 02:58 EDT (US)     28 / 28       
I also prefer the Copts to be a playable faction, hence the split them from the start part. Also to help improve balancing we could consider throwing in some advanced buildings/ units as insurance.

Drafting up a unit summary now...

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