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Topic Subject:The Visigoths
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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 08 February 2011 10:39 EDT (US)         
We are a proud and vital people, the Visigoths!

We Goths sprang from the shores of the cold northern sea, and made our way south on the east side of the great forests. We traveled far, and in traveling, broke into two tribes- the Ostrogoths and we Visigoths. Life was grand, and we were expanding across a fertile land.

Then came the Huns, who drove all before them on their ugly little ponies and with fearsome bows in their hands. Like the other tribes, we too fled their onslaught. We went west, to Rome, in the hope that we could seek shelter behind their limes and walls. We had no gold, but we did have fighting men and courage. This we offered the Romans, who spurned us as defeated curs even as they let us within their realm.

Their magistrates were brutal, and their terms harsh. Again and again we were promised land and food and money for our fighting strength lent to their struggles, only to be spurned and ignored and robbed. Enough became enough, and a great leader rose among us. Alaric was his name, and he led us to march on Rome itself.

Never since Brennus eight hundred years before had that mighty city fallen to barbarian warriors. We were the first, and would do it twice to punish Roman perfidy. After that, we spat on the empire and decided to make Gaul and Hispana our home. The Franks- another Germanic tribe- joined us in Gaul. Both had fought the Romans, but both admired them as well. The Romans, once tamed of their arrogance, became our friends. We even fought the Huns together under Aetius- and drove those demonic horseman back into the far plains from which they sprang!

Then Rome fell from grace, though the descendants of the great Aetius managed to hold on to a little corner. The rest of the Empire went up for grabs in the West- and we Visigoths chose Hispana and Aquitaine as our homeland. Here we are, and here you found us to command.

Welcome to the Visigoths, the strongest of all!

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
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Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
AuthorReplies:
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 12:55 EDT (US)     1 / 81       
Govt Building
Peasants

Infantry
Gadrauhts (Levy Spearmen)
Gothic Spear Comitatus
Gadrauhts Hairus (Swords Comitatus)
Gothic Axe Comitatus
Dismounted Gothic Nobles

Missile
Skirmishers
Gothic Archers (Chosens)

Cavalry
Gothic Lancers
Gothic Nobles
Warlord

Pre-Romanization Navy
Boats
Large Boats
Most of this we can probably keep, unless someone has some ideas to change it. Change would be nice, but we are essentially talking about the same confederation of Germanic and steppe tribes. I'd like to propose that we add a bit to the cavalry, and change the AoR - keeping the Suevi (I wonder why?) but replacing the others with Alans and Vandals both of which settled in the peninsula. Indeed, one theory about the origins of the name Catalunya is that it comes from 'Alans and Vandals.'

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[This message has been edited by Drakontos (edited 02-08-2011 @ 12:56 PM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 08 February 2011 13:32 EDT (US)     2 / 81       
Spain was renowned for its horses. Maybe give the Visigoths a better cavalry, or at least upgrade the regular cavalry from their stables (+1 exp, for example)?

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 14:12 EDT (US)     3 / 81       
would it be an idea to have a unit like visigothic comitases or some unit that was a visigothic replica or part-replica of the roman infantry unit?
they could have been influenced by the romans & earlier (in BI times) they did take roman equipment

though whether they were different at this time unitwise
though they are a romano-barbarian faction

Just a suggestion
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 14:15 EDT (US)     4 / 81       
Terikel, we just agreed again. This worries me.

Anyway, I'm trying to think how we could improve their cavalry - some new units would be nice to distinguish them from the Ostrogoths, but none spring to mind. Alternatively, they could just have better stats. +1xp is an idea, another I had was to make their cavalry have the fast_moving trait.

This is the problem with extended unit trees. Instead of small, compact ones which have obvious unique units, you have trouble finding something to add. :/

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 21:00 EDT (US)     5 / 81       
I said in the Ostrogothic discussions that we could give the Gothic Cavalry unit to the cavalry-strong Visigoths. (Of course it can't be 100%-copied from the vanilla Germans.)

The Experience upgrades will also help them against the Frankish heavyweights. And also we could grant good cav mercs and AoR units to help them field stronger cavalry.

RE: AoR

A few ideas and peoples we could include:

Alans - HAs most probably, and perhaps medium cav

Vandals - cavalry...

Suevi - infantry...

Astures - Savage warriors living mostly as hunter-gatherers (foot archers?)

Basques - Defied Visigothic and Frankish attempts at conquest many times. (medium infantry?)

Cantabrians - Fierce mountaineers. (medium-skirmishers?)

* * *


Some of these we may give to the merc collection instead, which will allow more flexibility and less redundancy. Discuss, please.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 08 February 2011 22:08 EDT (US)     6 / 81       
Hmmm...perhaps we could give the Visigoths some specifically Iberian units (either as an AOR or otherwise) like a heavy infantry or ambush unit? We want to make them feel different from the Ostrogoths, though cut from the same mold.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 09 February 2011 07:22 EDT (US)     7 / 81       
Iberian... Infantry?

Nice idea, and as you can see in the list above your post, there is quite a few different tribes and peoples meeting the requirement. The Astures, for instance, were renowned for their adeptness at mountain warfare. While I wouldn't go as far as to grant them a fear bonus or anything like that, I certainly think a certain shock element plus good hiding ability and stamina, etc. would make a quite impressive unit.

Anyway, seeing that the lands of Spain has got so many different and diversified choices for its AoR, I'm inclined to propose we do away with some of the regular roster from the Ostrogoths, and complement it with the extensive list of Spanish AoR.

Thoughts?

(And hope you stay longer this time, Mythic, whatever it was that you had been busying with)

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-09-2011 @ 07:24 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 09 February 2011 08:00 EDT (US)     8 / 81       
Maybe even some light Moorish cavalry? I appreciate it is slightly out of the timeframe, but the fact is that Ceuta in Morocco has been a Spanish posession since time immortal (mid 500s), although it changed hands often enough. Be it from Toledo, Córdoba or Madrid, Spain tends to have a sphere of influence along the Moroccan coast.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 09:21 EDT (US)     9 / 81       
Moors in Baetica, you mean? I think it's an okay idea if the Spanish Peninsula hasn't already been filled with so many different peoples who all, to a certain extent, could field good light to heavy cavalry quite easily.

Baetica itself was also dominated at that time by the Siling Vandals - excellent horsemen, don't you agree?
Alans - HAs most probably, and perhaps medium cav

Vandals - cavalry...

Suevi - infantry...

Astures - Savage warriors living mostly as hunter-gatherers (foot archers?)

Basques - Defied Visigothic and Frankish attempts at conquest many times. (medium infantry?)

Cantabrians - Fierce mountaineers. (medium-skirmishers?)
So, I'd like to hear your thoughts on which of these could belong to the AoR, and which to the Mercenaries? You don't have to classify them by tribe, because there could be an AoR Alan light cav, then a Merc Alan HA, e.g.

Do some research - if necessary - and discuss, please.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-10-2011 @ 09:24 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 09:28 EDT (US)     10 / 81       
Well, AoR is all very well, but if the Visigoths can't field an army outside of Spain, we can hardly give the other factions the developed rosters we have.

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Alpha211
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 11:57 EDT (US)     11 / 81       
It might just be me but i imagine that the alans & vandals would probably be mercenaries rather than be conscripted or recruitable troops. They might be recruitable troops but i think its more likely they would act as mercenaries rather than part of the visigoth peoples
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 17:24 EDT (US)     12 / 81       
The Visigoths were strong in cavalry? I thought it was the Ostrogoths. Oh well, live and learn.

Are you sure that they get Aquitaine? I thought the Franks kicked them out of France.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 17:52 EDT (US)     13 / 81       
Yeah, we decided that the Visigoths, being in the famous cavalry producing Spain, could have superior horsemen.

As for Aquitania - technically the Goths owned Aquitania until 507, although it remains to be seen if the entirety of the province is Visigothic at the start of the game.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 11 February 2011 00:44 EDT (US)     14 / 81       
Core units supplemented by auxiliary AoR units which vary from region to region - how's that for a Visigothic roster idea?

By "core units" I mean the upper-tier, more "signature-ish" units - heavy infantry and cav, archers, etc.

Thoughts?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 11 February 2011 02:54 EDT (US)     15 / 81       
Well yeah, but we can hardly give them a cut down Ostrogothic roster with a couple of Spanish AoRs and call it a faction. They need expanded AoRs over the entire map for that to be viable, unless we want to go back and change the rest of the factions we've done.

Personally I favour the extensive AoR small core roster approach, but it's a bit late to be changing now!

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Alpha211
Legionary
posted 11 February 2011 13:10 EDT (US)     16 / 81       
I think that GKA's idea core & region-to-region could work well.
But it would have to span the whole map & if you created a entirely new unit across certain areas it could involve alot of work (not reaserch & idea wise) just scripting where conditions are met etc.

I guess thats similar to Drakontos's idea
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 11 February 2011 21:15 EDT (US)     17 / 81       
By the early 6th century, the Kingdom's territory in Gaul had been lost to the Franks, save the narrow coastal strip of Septimania, but the Visigoth control of Iberia was secured by the end of that century with the submission of the Suebi and the Basques. The ethnic distinction between the indigenous Hispano-Roman population and the Visigoths had largely disappeared by this time (the Gothic language lost its last and probably already declining function as a church language when the Visigoths converted to Catholicism in 589).[1] Liber Iudiciorum (completed in 654) abolished the old tradition of having different laws for Romans and for Visigoths.
I was thinking we could make the Visigoths more Romanized and blending with the native Hispano-Roman population, so as to allow more Romanized units. It would appear that they had a legal system similar to that of the Ostrogoths in the beginning, but abolished it 154 years after our campaign start. Overall it appears that they were less segregated from the Hispano-Roman population than in the case of the Ostrogoths...

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 12 February 2011 03:42 EDT (US)     18 / 81       
We really have no idea if that was the case or not. As I've pointed out, Theodoric was incredibly Roman in his mindset, and many historians seem to think that his measures were really just formalities. See my previous posts RE names and the like!

But unless we have a better idea, that works for me! Just not lorica segmentata, please.

On a slightly off topic note - does anyone else find it weird that AoK showed the Goths as a bunch of chaps who couldn't build a wall to save themselves, despite the fact that they developed the horseshoe arch (which to me demonstrates architectural skill)?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 12 February 2011 05:26 EDT (US)     19 / 81       
The Visigoths did seem to have mastered architecture much better than their fellow migrants, according to wiki. A short summary below:
Branches of Visigothic art include their architecture, their crafts (especially jewellery), and even their script.
Not much is said on Ostrogothic art or architecture, though, so I guess it is safe to presume the Visigoths were the better at such things. Perhaps the AoK Goths were the Ostrogoths?

The wiki texts gave me a couple of ideas:

1. Give them a "Craftsmen's Guild" (building) that offers the "More tradeable goods" bonus. "Jewellers' Guild" should also work, seeing that it's more specific. There should be some explanation as to why the Visigoths get this building in the building description, of course.

2. Retinue member - "Expert Mason" - with whom the Visigothic governor can command lower stone building/repair costs.

* * *


It might help to remember that the Ostrogothic kings after Theodoric the Great immediately renounced the "partnership" with the ERE, and that the ERE eventually went to great lengths to try and wrestle Italy back from their erstwhile ally, and that we are trying to differentiate the two branches of Goths

The idea of Romanization of Visigothic units should be limited to a semi-Romanized degree. The Ostrogoths have Gadrauhts Plumbata and City Guard after Romanization. I'm thinking of dropping the City Guard but keeping the Plumbata, since Spain is not Italy and urban police is not that appropriate.

Will think up some units later.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-12-2011 @ 09:51 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 12 February 2011 05:49 EDT (US)     20 / 81       
´fraid not, GKA
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basílica_de_San_Apolinar_Nuovo

I'd like to give the Ostrogoths access to larger Roman buildings, such as Arenas and Triumphal arches - only the first level perhaps, but access nonetheless. Not the Visigoths, however! Your guilds work well though.

Units... perhaps a similar roster to the Ostrogothic one, BUT without warcry and increased discipline/morale/stats to compensate. And the cav, too.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 12 February 2011 10:17 EDT (US)     21 / 81       
´fraid not, GKA
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basílica_de_San_Apolinar_Nuovo

I'd like to give the Ostrogoths access to larger Roman buildings, such as Arenas and Triumphal arches - only the first level perhaps, but access nonetheless. Not the Visigoths, however!
You want to give some basic Roman buildings to the Ostrogoths, but not the Visigoths? I do not see what a single church erected by the most Romanized Ostrogoth of them all can do to prove your point.

My previous link was messed up, I see now, and here it is again. As you can see inside, they had a ton of basilican architecture across Hispania -

San Juan de Baños de Cerrato (Palencia)
Cripta de San Antolín de Palencia
San Pedro de la Mata (Toledo)
Santa Comba de Bande (Orense)
San Pedro de la Nave (Zamora)
Santa María de Quintanilla de las Viñas (Burgos)
Santa María de Melque (Toledo)
São Gião (Nazaré)

- while you have found one church erected by Theodoric the Great in Ravenna. How are we to know who actually built it - the Ostrogoths? The Romans living among them? Or builders from neighboring kingdoms? I'm not trying to stamp out the possibility that the Ostrogoths did have such architectural skills, but merely to point out that the Visigoths demonstrated them much more elaborately and convincingly. The facts sit before us: the Ostrogoths built a church under Theodoric the Great, while the Visigoths built churches throughout the sixth and seventh centuries. I think you're going to need more than just the Basilica of Sant'Apollinare Nuovo to convince me.
Your guilds work well though.
Thanks. While giving both the Craftsmen's Guild and the Jeweller's Guild could be awesome, it could be a bit dreary too - perhaps make them into two tiers? Craftsmen's Tier 1, Jewellers' Tier 2. Sounds good?

RE: Roman-Visigothic units

Well I've been thinking and the only ones I've come up with are a "Equites Hispana" unit (disciplined cavalrymen riding superb Spanish stallions) and an improved Levy Spearmen (Gadrauhts) unit renamed as the Contificis? (A Latin word I found meaning spearmen...... tighter, more regular formation with better stamina...) Please help

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-12-2011 @ 10:18 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 12 February 2011 11:48 EDT (US)     22 / 81       
Well, you yourself can hardly claim the Visigothic temples were constructed exlusively by Goths and not Romans. The Ostrogothic Kingdom only really endured under Theodoric, which for me ought to be what makes it different. RTW is a game about what could have been, after all. And of course there are many other buildings, including Theodoric's Mausoleum, and a great many works of art too. I'm just lazy.

But we can discuss such technicalities later. Units, units, units... What did you think of my discipline idea in my previous post?

EDIT: Two units. Light and Heavy Hispano-Roman Cavalry. Basically just Pontic light and heavy cavalry. The light ones are essentially farmers on superior Hispanic horses, the second a unit actually trained to exploit these abilities.

A nice lead on to Med2's Jinetes, no?

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[This message has been edited by Drakontos (edited 02-12-2011 @ 11:50 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 12 February 2011 21:21 EDT (US)     23 / 81       
a similar roster to the Ostrogothic one, BUT without warcry and increased discipline/morale/stats to compensate. And the cav, too.
I wasn't aware that the Ostrogothic units were going to have warcry...
Two units. Light and Heavy Hispano-Roman Cavalry. Basically just Pontic light and heavy cavalry. The light ones are essentially farmers on superior Hispanic horses, the second a unit actually trained to exploit these abilities.

A nice lead on to Med2's Jinetes, no?
Govt Building
Peasants

Infantry
Gadrauhts (Levy Spearmen)
Gothic Spear Comitatus
Gadrauhts Hairus (Swords Comitatus)
Gothic Axe Comitatus
Dismounted Gothic Nobles

Missile
Skirmishers
Gothic Archers (Chosens)

Cavalry
Gothic Lancers
Equites Hispana - good-stamina medium jav cav, respectable melee
Gothic Nobles
Gothic Cavalry - one word: kick-ass
Warlord

Pre-Romanization Navy
Boats
Large Boats

* * *


First, I thought the Ostrogothic infantry roster was already semi-disciplined? Comitatus suggested that.

Second, do you like the name Equites Hispana? I think we can add or drop the farmer jav cav unit, depending on how rich we want to make the Visigothic cavalry roster. And do remember the Spanish AoR also makes up a sunstantial portion of the Visigothic military, at least in Spain. Speaking of which, I think we ought to start arranging and developing who will bring what.

* * *


Mercenaries
Northwestern Spain: Asturian Foresters - kind of a Gallic Forester come-back
Eastern Spain: Alan Armoured Horse Archers
Northern Spain: Cantabrian Mercenaries - stealthy "Illyrian Mercenaries"

AoR
Northwestern Spain: Suevic Spearmen (upon conquest)
Northeastern Spain: Basque Swords/Axemen - hardy medium swordsmen/axemen
Baetica: Vandal Raiders - chase cav

* * *


Like?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-12-2011 @ 09:25 PM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 13 February 2011 02:13 EDT (US)     24 / 81       
I assumed they did, since they were essentially just renamed Gothic units from Vanilla. While CA has used Comitatus as a word for legion, historians use it to mean 'warband.' I guess to me it just has a different connotation because of this.

The Spanish AoR. That's my problem. We can't have a faction which has an immensely rich AoR roster... in a corner of the map. I'd like to slow their expansion, sure, since we aren't using the Suevi, but I also don't want them to be stuck in Spain, with crappy units and frustrating issues with supply lines if they leave the Peninsula.

Either we give them a globally extended AoR (and I don't know that we have the unit/model room, or the ideas) or we fill out their roster.

Equites Hispana is a very sexy sounding name. I've only studied enough latin to read, not write - does it make grammatical sense?

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Alpha211
Legionary
posted 13 February 2011 02:28 EDT (US)     25 / 81       
I think thats a good roster (if all that is a permanent addition to all visigoth cities under their control)
Again the roster units that all depend on capturing regions can be good in & near spain but if you had to do that worldwide... well it might be a bit of a struggle
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 13 February 2011 05:25 EDT (US)     26 / 81       
I like it too.

Maybe make Vandal Raiders a permanent part. Light cavalry is pretty generic, and this is only the name of the unit- it might be populated by Gauls, Goths, Berbers, etc, but the style of fighting is Vandal. Thus it can be a permanent roster unit.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 13 February 2011 06:26 EDT (US)     27 / 81       
I've no idea whether Equites Hispana makes any sense. Equites mean cavalry/horsemen, while Hispana means Spanish.

The "Vandal fighting style"?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 13 February 2011 12:48 EDT (US)     28 / 81       
Yeah, its whether or not they are declined correctly. My head says 'Equites Hispanae' but I'm not sure why. Genitives and plurals and adjectives and nouns...
The "Vandal fighting style"?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 14 February 2011 01:59 EDT (US)     29 / 81       
Noun and noun?

Anyway, I guess Terikel probably meant harrying, prodding, goading, and probing for weaknesses in the enemy line, and finally swarming into any exposed weak points, all done mainly with cavalry?

Cavalry
Gothic Raiders - axe-wielding chase cav
Gothic Lancers
Equites Hispana - good-stamina medium jav cav, respectable melee
Gothic Nobles
Gothic Cavalry - one word: kick-ass
Warlord

Mercenaries
Northwestern Spain: Asturian Foresters - kind of a Gallic Forester come-back
Eastern (and Western?) Spain: Alan Armoured Horse Archers
Northern Spain: Cantabrian Mercenaries - stealthy "Illyrian Mercenaries"

AoR
Northwestern Spain: Suevic Spearmen (upon conquest)
Northeastern Spain: Basque Swords/Axemen - hardy medium swordsmen/axemen


Spain had always been a very interesting and quite disunited place in those days - its people never quite submitted as fully as the Gauls up north did to the Roman conquerors, as shown by the many revolts throughout her rule. I don't think three or four two AoR units in Spain make for an immensely rich roster. They'll find other AoR troops when they move out across the map. Plus, a good AoR roster attracts players of other factions to conquer Spain for the cool units, or at least conquer part of it.

Most of these tribal units come as Mercenaries, not AoR. And if we add the Raiders (which I've renamed as Gothic Raiders to avoid confusion with the Vandals) to the regular roster, the Visigoths do have a quite rich and all-around roster even when they do move out of the Merc-and-AoR-rich Spanish Peninsula.

Satisfied with the arrangements?

And just to point out for the sake of pointing out, the Suevic Kingdom would be immensely rich in its mercenary choices if we make the faction.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-14-2011 @ 02:01 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 14 February 2011 05:44 EDT (US)     30 / 81       
I'll just think of them as Jinetes Españoles. Problem solved. :P

And I think you'll find Gaul was far more rebellious than Spain.

I agree that Spain offers a particularly diverse merc/AoR roster, and that we should use it - I just disagree that the Visigoths should be dependent on AoRs.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 14 February 2011 06:50 EDT (US)     31 / 81       
Well they hardly need to, if given such a rich cavalry roster and not-so-shabby infantry one. In fact I think theirs is now better than the Ostrogothic one because of their better cav, which is fine because the Ostrogoths did not last as long as the Visigoths, and because the ERE and Lombards need to beat the OGs eventually.

So, looks like the roster is mostly done...

Govt Building
Vigiles

Infantry
Gadrauhts (Levy Spearmen)
Gothic Spear Comitatus
Gadrauhts Hairus (Swords Comitatus)
Gothic Axe Comitatus
Dismounted Gothic Nobles

Missile
Skirmishers
Gothic Archers (Chosens)

Cavalry
Gothic Raiders - axe-wielding chase cav
Gothic Lancers
Equites Hispana - good-stamina medium jav cav, respectable melee
Gothic Nobles
Gothic Cavalry - one word: kick-ass
Warlord

Navy
Boats
Large Boats

Siege?
Onagers

Mercenaries
Northwestern Spain: Asturian Foresters - kind of a Gallic Forester come-back
Eastern and Western Spain: Alan Armoured Horse Archers
Northern Spain: Cantabrian Mercenaries - stealthy "Illyrian Mercenaries"

AoR
Northwestern Spain: Suevic Spearmen (upon conquest)
Northeastern Spain: Basque Swords/Axemen - hardy medium swordsmen/axemen

* * *


And do we still do an active Romanization, or just a passive quasi-Romanized roster from the start?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 16 February 2011 05:59 EDT (US)     32 / 81       
GUYS!

Sorry, I mean, hello? Gentlemen? Comrades?

RE: Infantry

The Ostrogothic infantry units evidently have the "warcry" ability, which is fine. The question here is whether we take the warcry ability away for their Visigothic counterparts to soften them up a bit, seeing that they've got these considerably richer cavalry, local AoR, mercenary rosters in comparison?

Or we could just take away a unit from the Visigothic infantry and be done with it, but personally I prefer knocking "warcry" out to sort of represent their semi-civilization a bit since coming to Hispania.

Just a nice pic I found:


RE: Faction Big Heads' Titles

Same as the Ostrogoths?

Faction Leader - Rex Visigothi
Faction Heir - Magna Ducis

RE: Faction Symbol

Ideas?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 16 February 2011 06:25 EDT (US)     33 / 81       
The roster looks good at first glance, as do the titles.

Knocking off warcry would soften them as opposed to the Ostrogoths, but I am more in favor of dropping warcry from the Ostrogoths than the Visigoths. The Ostrogoths had a large kingdom, but it fell relatively quickly. Maybe the loss of warcry was one reason, whereas the Visigoth kingdom lasted until it was conquered by the 'Caliphate'.

The pic causes me a bit of uneasiness. This is not due to its inaccuracy, but due to the fact that the warrior has an unsheathed dagger hanging by its hilt directly before his penis. An awkward kick or a bit of carelessness while approaching a chair and we have a new eunuch.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 16 February 2011 07:58 EDT (US)     34 / 81       
Sweet. Symbol could be this, the Visigothic Cross:



@Terikel:

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Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 16 February 2011 17:39 EDT (US)     35 / 81       
Terikel, I feel that back in the day of learning how to pillage and make your own boat you were the one who would be smartassing his way into not doing a supervisory role.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 17 February 2011 02:28 EDT (US)     36 / 81       
You screwed that one up, Punic.

I was the one smartassing my way INTO the supervisory role, where I could sit back and watch the people work, and sip ale while flirting with the women while others slave away in the humid heat.

My job here is also supervisory- I talk, say something foolish, and sit back while four or five others discuss and debate the relative merits and demerits of my words. All of which generates activity, another part of my job.

I am very good at this, aren't I? After seven hundred years, I ought to be!

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-17-2011 @ 02:30 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 17 February 2011 10:03 EDT (US)     37 / 81       
My "lucky willie"? LOL.

And while you two chatter your asses off, allow me and Drakontos to do real men's work.

The Cross could work, or we could do something less religiously associated, like a pair of Visigothic fibulae depicting eagles:

[JPEG, (235.61 KB)]

Or just one - looking either right or left. (duh)

RE: Warcry

The Ostrogoths in our mod are already weak enough, let's be a bit compassionate and give them a chance in surviving against the wolves on all sides, at least?

As for the Visigoths... taking it away from their infantry would balance it out a bit, but I await your opinions.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 17 February 2011 19:22 EDT (US)     38 / 81       
Ah, accidentally added the 'not' into my other post.


As for the faction symbol, perhaps back to back eagles with another one with wings extended on top of them?

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 18 February 2011 02:20 EDT (US)     39 / 81       
I think the visigoth crosss could work but also the eagles idea could work
Just an idea the visigoths were very good architecture wise, the cross could be good as it shows how "advanced" they were or perhaps something along those lines, maybe some kind of building or symbol
Although the previous ideas could already work

Also im not sure on the exact details but the visigothic infantry could be balanced without war cry (I think) whereas could the ostrogoths do with warcry but not in all units?

[This message has been edited by Alpha211 (edited 02-18-2011 @ 02:25 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 18 February 2011 10:01 EDT (US)     40 / 81       
To be frank, Warcry is actually very firmly associated (in my head) with barbarism and a... lack of civilization and sophistication, as the way it was back in vanilla RTW. The Ostrogoths by this time were reasonably more civilized since the days they fought Rome or other tribes and served as foederati, so even if we do give the Ostrogoths "warcry", I suggest we do it partially - just the lower tier units, perhaps? As for the Visigoths, I am of the opinion that we lessen the warcry presence so that their infantry's less potent and allows some degree of balancing between the two.
Infantry
Gadrauhts (Levy Spearmen) - warcry
Gothic Spear Comitatus - warcry
Gadrauhts Hairus (Swords Comitatus) - warcry
Gothic Axe Comitatus - warcry
Dismounted Gothic Nobles
Infantry
Gadrauhts - warcry
Gothic Spear Comitatus - warcry
Gadrauhts Hairus
Gothic Axe Comitatus
Dismounted Gothic Nobles
RE: Visigothic Architectural Prowess

I still think we could make available some kind of retinue member, more buildings and churches in stone (with shorter build time?), and maybe Masons' Guilds too to reflect that part of their society and "legacy".

RE: Symbol

The Cross is a religious symbol, and although it might help them look sophisticated, we still have to ask ourselves whether we are making a heavily religious faction in the Visigoths.

Three eagles? The symbol might clutter too much - not that it's a bad idea, because I have no idea except for the mental picture in my head, so...

Now, Drakontos put a single eagle spreading its wings as the OG faction symbol. So another lone eagle is boring, which means we could do... two eagles! Or three, as Punic suggested. Which is it gonna be?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 02-18-2011 @ 10:05 AM).]

Seneca Monachus
Legionary
posted 18 February 2011 11:14 EDT (US)     41 / 81       
i am in favor for the visigothic cross as faction symbol.
they putted the cross also on their coins, so the symbol was imporatant for them.


also when you check a statue of Don Pelayo, a visigothic noble who lived after our era (around 700) he is displayed with the cross behind him.

In case of the warcry i am with GKA, give it to the more barbarian tribe, the visigoths.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say: Fools because they have to say something" - Plato
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 18 February 2011 13:09 EDT (US)     42 / 81       
The cross I posted was the Visigothic flag!

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 18 February 2011 13:33 EDT (US)     43 / 81       
That flag was very Swedish.

I like the cross on the coin, as long as it doesn't get hooked into being a swastika. Four Ts hanging together, though... kind of nice.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Rubber_Tooth
Legionary
posted 18 February 2011 18:46 EDT (US)     44 / 81       
I agre with you Terikel, it look alot like some kind of Swedish flag.

The good news is, now I've conquered Spain, retaken my lands, and invaded Briton territory, and now they're coming to me whining that they want their cities back along with 20k denarri. Losers :P - Erynion
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 18 February 2011 21:01 EDT (US)     45 / 81       
In case of the warcry i am with GKA, give it to the more barbarian tribe, the visigoths.
I'm not so sure that was my point, as a matter of fact. The main concern here is not just about their degree of barbarity, but also of their relative roster strengths and the dangers lurking in their surroundings. For the OGs, the threats exist and are very real in factions like the WRE (who can't wait to reclaim their lost lands), the ERE (who can't wait to kick-start their own reconquista), the Burgundians (who might or might not rush Northern Italy under the Frankish powerhouse's relentless pressure), and the Lombards (who would supposedly bring their armies over Illyria into Italy to set up their own kingdom in the 7th century). All these could justify a little bit of stims in the form of good old "WARCRY!!!", which I was thinking we could grant to four of the five infantry units in the OG roster.

The Visigoths have threats from the soon-to-be-steam-roller Franks north of them, and maybe the Burgundians too if they are willing to stretch their lands so thin with the possibility of Frankish incursions. Since we didn't pick the Suevic Kingdom in NW Spain as a real faction, the VGs have very little to fear with their strong cavalry which should be able to stand up to the Franks reasonably well.

Hence, I am of the opinion that less of the VG infantry enjoy the WARCRY bonus.

RE: Symbol
I like the cross on the coin, as long as it doesn't get hooked into being a swastika.
My precise thoughts.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 21 February 2011 10:23 EDT (US)     46 / 81       
So, ladies and gentlemen, warcry!

I am of the opinion that the Visigoths ought to have this, being in wild Hispana and facing the formidable Franks, while the Ostrogoths- immersing themselves in the ruins of the Latin culture and frolicking in their newly-founded kingdom would have lost that ability.

It is decision time. One week will be allotted to this discussion, then we close and move on.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 21 February 2011 14:24 EDT (US)     47 / 81       
Visigothic infantry slightly weaker (discipline, blah blah), with warcry.

Thus doth vote the Seeing One.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 22 February 2011 02:21 EDT (US)     48 / 81       
How about we do it this way:

OGs no warcry but more discipline (defensive).

VGs yes warcry but less discipline (less line-holding tendencies).

And I assume the symbol's decided as the "4-T" Cross on the coin? Golden Cross on Black Field?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 22 February 2011 04:36 EDT (US)     49 / 81       
I knew you'd come around eventually.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 22 February 2011 05:25 EDT (US)     50 / 81       
Well somebody's gotta make the first move and compromise, even when everyone else is just standing around and making an ass of themselves.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
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