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Topic Subject:Centres of Power
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 March 2011 10:10 EDT (US)         
So far, we have agreed on the following settlements' status as Centers of Power, a new-ish feature in this mod:

(nil)

So I thought it's time we commence on finding, brainstorming, evaluating, screening, and determining the candidates. Remember: each faction should include not more than one (or in some cases like the ERE's, two) Centre/s of Power.

Also to be discussed are the attributes of CoP, special stuff we could do with them, and the bonuses (apart from the most bad-ass units' recruitment) they can offer.

To kick the discussions into overdrive, here are a few initial proposals and already-confirmed features:

1. The exclusive construction of Epic Walls.

2. Roman Architectural Restoration: This is simply where history meets gameplay epicosity - when the West and some of the East were overrun by the barbarian hordes, certain beautiful pieces of architecture were inevitably damaged, forsaken by original inhabitants, or in some cases, utterly destroyed. Perhaps as the CoPs grew in size and financial strength, they can afford to rebuild or build new structures on existing foundations?

3. Offers reduced "distance to capital" penalties on public order to surrounding regions. If doable.

* * *

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
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AuthorReplies:
Seneca Monachus
Legionary
posted 05 March 2011 13:39 EDT (US)     1 / 24       
Some centres of power:
- Rome, makes sense i guess
- Constantinople, also makes sense. (Hagia Sophia)
- Alexandria, the city in Egypt where Pharos was located until its fall around 1375 and the famous libery. Is it possible to give it the libary of Alexandria as unique building?
- Ardashir-Khwarrah for the sassanids
quoted from wiki
Once Ardashir was appointed Shahenshah, he moved his capital further to the south of Persis and founded Ardashir-Khwarrah (formerly Gur, modern day Firouzabad). The city, well supported by high mountains and easily defendable through narrow passes, became the center of Ardashir's efforts to gain more power.
for the franks it is harder to find a good centre of power:
quote
The most famour capital of the Franks was Aachen in present Germany. It was the capital of Charlemagne and some of his predecessors, especially in the 9th century.

Another famous capital is Tournai/Doornik in present Belgium. It was the first capital, of the famous king Clovis or Chlodovech who expanded the Frankish realm considerably.
quoted from wiki
It came into the possession of the Salian Franks in 432. Under king Childeric I, who was buried or reburied there, Tournai was the capital of the Frankish empire. In 486, Clovis moved the center of power to Paris.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say: Fools because they have to say something" - Plato
Rinster
Legionary
posted 05 March 2011 15:22 EDT (US)     2 / 24       
Were we thinking about something in mainland greece, or has that area been passed by in history by now?
like athens?
or whatever?
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 05 March 2011 15:32 EDT (US)     3 / 24       
I would rather that Epic Walls weren't available anywhere, but rather Large Walls were CoP-only.

Or at the least, the Epic Walls were Roman/Sassanid only, and Large Walls for the rest.

We can give specific CoPs global bonuses, if we want.

Are they simply the beginning capitals (Well, plus presumably Alexandria, Antioch and maybe Nicea) of each Empire, or a more limited selection of cities?

For the Franks it would definitely be Paris, if they get one.

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Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 05 March 2011 16:32 EDT (US)     4 / 24       
Carthage? Pretty much the center of power in North Africa outside of Aegyptius.

Perhaps have a one limit per region? Egypt+Arabia, Maghreb, Gaul+Iberia, Steppes+Germany, Northern Regions (Britannia+Scandia), Constantinople, Rome, and then the East?

Rome and Constantinople are a must. Then Alexandria for Egypt, Maghreb is Carthage(Tunis?), Madrid/Toledo for Gaul+Iberia (I have no clue of the cities in BI), someone pick for Steppes/Germany, Londinium for Northern Regions, and then someone pick one for the East.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer

[This message has been edited by Punic Hoplite (edited 03-05-2011 @ 04:36 PM).]

vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 05 March 2011 17:46 EDT (US)     5 / 24       
Rome or Ravenna? Or both? Ravenna had far better defensive capabilities, which is why it was made the capital. Rome had most the remaining cultural icons of Rome, unsurprisingly. Heart says Rome, mind says Ravenna, which was long since the capital of the Imperium Romanum Occidentalis. Though largely due to not owning Rome for decades.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 March 2011 20:45 EDT (US)     6 / 24       
This is actually closely related to the Map Discussions, but differs in that - here, we decide the most important settlements that must be included in the final map, whilst taking into consideration the surrounding geo-political environment.

So, with that out of the way, here's a brief look at the candidates so far:

1. Aachen
A quarry on the Lousberg, which was first used in Neolithic times, attests to the long occupation of the site of Aachen.

No larger settlements, however, have been found to have existed in this remote rural area, distant at least 15 km from the nearest road even in Roman times, up to the early medieval period when the place is mentioned as a king's mansion for the first time, not long before Charlemagne became ruler of the Germanic Franks.
Our mod commences in 500AD - hardly the era of importance of Aachen yet.


2. Alexandria
Agreed.


3. Ardashir-Khwarrah/ Khor Ardeshīr (it's too far to the southeast near the Persian Gulf, though it's doubtless important)

4. Athens (hmmmm, if Constantinople is one already, another that close to and easily defensible by the ERE will lead to OP issues)

5. Carthage

6. Constantinople

7. Ctesiphon

8. Ravenna

9. Rome

10. Toletum
Having been populated since the Bronze Age, Toledo (Toletum in Latin) grew in importance during Roman times, being a main commercial and administrative center in the Roman province of Tarraconensis. After the fall of the Roman Empire, Toledo served as the capital city of Visigothic Spain, beginning with Liuvigild (Leovigild), and was the capital of Spain until the Moors conquered Iberia in the 8th century.
11. Tournai

* * *


Thing about a Steppes/East Germania CoP is that the area wasn't particularly rich, nor did it contain foci of power in that era, so I would leave it CoP-less.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
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Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 06 March 2011 13:55 EDT (US)     7 / 24       
I definitely agree that Constantinople should be one, Alexandria too
Ctesiphon too (great city of the sassanind empire)
I think either Rome (the most important city (well capitalwise & the start of the roman republic) of the roman empire) or Ravenna (the later powerful city of the late roman empire).
Carthage could be one too (for north africa & overall itself)
Tolentum sounds a good idea too
Kilij Ae Varyl
Legionary
(id: AugustusCaesar)
posted 06 March 2011 14:45 EDT (US)     8 / 24       
I actually like the idea of Ardashir-Khwarrah as a CoP, It is stratigically important, and I'd love do to siege battles there.

"An emperor is subject to no one, but god and justice" -Barbarrosa
"The best fortress a prince can possess is the affection of his people" -Niccolo Machiavelli
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 06 March 2011 14:51 EDT (US)     9 / 24       
Unfortunately it isn't currently on the map, which I believe we agreed that we won't be changing hugely, at least not at first.

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Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 06 March 2011 18:07 EDT (US)     10 / 24       
Certainly Carthage. As I mentioned before, africa was the key to WRE revival. The area around Carthage was very fertile, and provided grain for the roman army and rome itself during much of it's history. Perhaps a farming bonus (comparable to the hanging gardens bonus) or a new unit that can now be trained.

I think most of the barbarians shouldnt get CoP. CoP should really be the huge cities like antioch, constantinople, alexandria, rome and such.

Multiple CoP in greece can be possible, but then the other city should only have a very small bonus.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 07 March 2011 19:12 EDT (US)     11 / 24       
RE: Barbarian lands getting CoPs

Well, the Franks were arguably the most civilized Romans and soon managed to forge an empire stretching from Germany to Spain to Italy. Seems like a sound justification for setting Tournai/ Tournacum/ Paris as a CoP. (Tournacum and Paris were both made capitals by their respective Frankish kings, Childeric I and Clovis)

Also, Londonium, as the largest and arguably the most important city in post-Roman Britain, can also be considered.

In the West, there could be:

1. Londonium
2. Tournacum/Paris
3. Toletum

4. Rome
5. Ravenna
6. Carthage

In the East, there could be:

1. Constantinople
2. Athens(?)
3. Ephesus

4. Antioch
5. Alexandria
6. Ctesiphon


Please discuss.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 08 March 2011 01:48 EDT (US)     12 / 24       
According to early historians such as the Venerable Bede and Gildas, whose writings were later brought together in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, in 449 Angles, Saxons and Jutes were invited to Britain by King Vortigern as mercenaries to help defend Britain against Picts and Scots. Bede, writing in the 8th century, stated that Jutes settled in Kent, and in 457, led by brothers Hengist and Horsa, turned against the Britons who had invited them and defeated them at the Battle of Crecganford (Crecganford is thought to be modern Crayford) and the Britons fled to London in terror. After this, it is very unclear as to what happened to London, as the historical records are very patchy.

Archeologists have found evidence that a small number of wealthy families managed to maintain a Roman lifestyle until the middle of the 5th century, inhabiting villas in the southeastern corner of the city. By the end of the century however, the city was largely an uninhabited ruin.[13]
I bolded the important parts.

That said, I would like to see Londinium as a Centre of Power- it makes a worthy goal for getting it and keeping it.

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Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 08 March 2011 04:10 EDT (US)     13 / 24       
I read the story about post-roman londinium too, and indeed it lost it's importance until much later it recovered.

I suggest using some city in cornwall/wales or winchester as CoP.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 08 March 2011 04:59 EDT (US)     14 / 24       
From what I've read in Cornwell's Saxon Chronicles (no shameless ad intended), the 9th Century Saxons did not live in the old Roman city of masonry and paved streets, building instead a new town of thatch and timber and mud on the western bank of the River Fleet.
The area of the Roman city remained largely uninhabited for the next 400 years, until the site was resettled by Anglo-Saxons
Hmmm, yes that fits then.
I suggest using some city in cornwall/wales or winchester as CoP.
Winchester, or Wintanceaster, is not featured in our map, and besides, it did not take historical main stage until much later when it was established as the West Saxon capital.

Here are the confirmed settlements in our map:

Isca Caster (Dumnonia)
Deva Caster/ Dinas Emrys/ Caer Maridunum (Cambria)
Eburacum (Britannia Interior)

Which one?

I am still with Londonium despite all that, because regardless of who wins the battle for Britain, it will improve their war-making capacity against the continental Franks. No other city there fits.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 March 2011 05:05 EDT (US)     15 / 24       
From what I've read in Cornwell's Saxon Chronicles
Respect. I demand that you give me an efist-bump.

I think we really ought to work out exactly what bonuses CoPs offer before we decide which settlements merit being one.

@GKA Nicea would make a better CoP than Ephesus, I feel, if that is the rough layout we're going for.

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Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 08 March 2011 07:43 EDT (US)     16 / 24       
Then perhaps we should replace the unimportant londinium with canterbury (or Durovernum Cantiacorum in latin or Cantwareburh in old english). Kent was the first germanic kingdom and was dominant at the beginning of the post-roman period. And it's even closer to the continent than londinium

[This message has been edited by Thompsoncs (edited 03-08-2011 @ 08:09 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 23 March 2011 17:54 EDT (US)     17 / 24       
Seriously, what do these CoPs actually do?

Better walls, ok (although I maintain that they should get Large Walls, and that Epic Walls should be removed altogether.

Advanced recruitment has been proposed. But how much better will these units be than the rest, and how many will there be?

Do we give certain CoPs different bonuses for different factions? Do we use local or global bonuses, for example? Small +1 happiness or law bonuses... farming, trade, tax... even experience bonuses at higher tiers?

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Rinster
Legionary
posted 23 March 2011 20:46 EDT (US)     18 / 24       
I think that each Cop would be based on the historical strengths of that region. So, maybe growth/farming bonus for alexandria, experience/morale bonus for Rome, and so on, with most of the significant ones in the reach of civilized nations being able to build the better walls, whether large or epic.

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
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Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 27 March 2011 00:46 EDT (US)     19 / 24       
Perhaps give a morale boost, as well as a small armor and experience boost?

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 29 March 2011 05:03 EDT (US)     20 / 24       
I had the idea earlier of nicking the FATW system of being able to "specialise", that is, to have buildings that focused the settlement into different specialities.

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 April 2011 07:48 EDT (US)     21 / 24       
Sorry about picking this up so late. Finally mustered the enthusiasm again to resume this.

EoJ, I have never played FATW, so do you mean like building trees that would be limited into that single "chosen" branch once the first level building of that branch is built?

Here's my idea of what "specializing" could mean: military, production, or administrative foci. A military focus allows construction of the top-tier recruitment buildings (hence the training of elite CoP units too), an economic/production focus gives you Latifundia + Curia/Guildhall + Foundry, and an administrative/civil focus brings Highways, Epic/Large Stone Walls, City Plumbing/ Large Open Sewer, Academies, Christian Basilica/ Pantheon (the place to administer the state religion).

Just an idea, and one that I have no clue about how to execute yet.
Do we give certain CoPs different bonuses for different factions? Do we use local or global bonuses, for example?
I don't know how do-able that is, nor how much work is needed, but we may not need to differentiate them. Take Carthage for instance, if the regional grain trade can profit and support the West, it should do the same for other people, like the Vandals or the East. Hence I think different factions should be able to enjoy the same bonuses in the same CoP.

The issue of global/local bonuses may vary from CoP to CoP, since different CoP's provide different kinds of bonuses (trade, military, population growth, law & public order, etc etc):

Holding the famous and symbolic city of Rome, for example, would grant global unit morale/ population happiness/ less unhappiness bonuses since to the Romans it represents the revival/continuation of Roman power, while to immigrant successor peoples it can represent their legitimacy as the rightful inheritors of the West, as well as proof of their martial might over rival kingdoms.

The Carthaginian grain trade would benefit entire factions as it had done for the many past Roman provinces - another global bonus. (by "benefit" I mean like trade income boost, pop. growth boost, and other such economic goodies)

Less global cities like Toletum would come with local bonuses, methinks. Spanish provinces are overall happier if their controlling faction also owns Toletum, for instance?
Advanced recruitment has been proposed. But how much better will these units be than the rest, and how many will there be?
CoP units as agreed upon in the faction threads become available with conquest/ control of a CoP, but I don't know if we should make them trainable in all CoPs, since it wouldn't make much sense to see Cambrian Longbowmen coming out of Ctesiphon.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-06-2011 @ 10:27 AM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 06 April 2011 08:54 EDT (US)     22 / 24       
Think of it as a centurion/officer of the Cambrian archers being detailed to Ctesiphon to train up a bunch of recruits in his way of warfare. The guys in the unit may not be Cambrian, but they are trained to fight as Cambrian archers, thus the unit itself would be trainable/recruitable there.

The other way, training them only in Cambria, would mean any units of them fighting in the east would have to either go all the way back to the original CoP for retraining, or be merged with replacements coming up the pipeline and lose their valuable chevrons.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 April 2011 10:27 EDT (US)     23 / 24       
I see your point again.

Anything to add regarding the CoP bonuses?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 06 May 2011 16:50 EDT (US)     24 / 24       
I've been thinking. I'm half convinced we should cut CoPs, attach bonuses to certain historical buildings, and limit the growth rate to mean that CoPs are essentially the only settlements capable of reaching Huge City status, and thus training the elite units... but if the effort is put in other settlements too can reach Huge City. (Farms, trade imports, low taxes, peasant disbanding)

It seems more flexible.

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