You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Dark Ages: Roman Revival
Moderated by Terikel Grayhair

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.25 replies
Total War Heaven » Forums » Dark Ages: Roman Revival » The Religion Thread
Bottom
Topic Subject:The Religion Thread
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 09 April 2011 13:07 EDT (US)         
I hope I have the authority to make this thread, and if I don't, I will take the fullest prosecution allowed by law.

So I thought that this thread would be a thread where we discuss the religion pros, cons, buildings, etc. for all factions. I hope this isn't premature, but I think that all of these can be melded into 1 thread.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
AuthorReplies:
Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 09 April 2011 13:34 EDT (US)     1 / 25       
Are religious buildings going to be faction specific (ei, not same bonuses for every faction)? Or will they be the same like I believe it's in Rome Total Realism. Where every nation gets a temple that boosts trade, one law, one happiness, ect.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 09 April 2011 13:58 EDT (US)     2 / 25       
1-Romano-British (Roman, Christian)
2-Franks (Barbarian, Christian)
3-Visigoths (Germanic, Arian)
4-Saxons (Barbarian, Christian)
5-Alemanni (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
6-Burgundians (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
7-Western Roman Empire (Roman, Christian)
8-Ostrogoths (Germanic, Arian)
9-Illyrians (Barbarian, Christian)
10-Venedae (Barbarian, Arian)
11-Gepidae (Barbarian, Hunnic Pantheon)
12-Huns (Hunnic, Hunnic Pantheon)
13-Alans (Barbarian, Arian)
14-Sassanids (Eastern, Zoroastrian)
15-Vandals (Barbarian, Christian)
16-Berbers (Berber, Berber Pantheon)
17-Norsemen (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
18-Eastern Roman Empire (Roman, Christian)

2 Emergent Factions:
19-Copts (Eastern, Christian)
20-Caliphate (Eastern, Muslim)
That's the list of factions and their religions from the original thread.

Now, there are 3 religions in BI. Christian, Zoroastrian, Pagan. Unfortunately, although we can add more, they will be bugged; the new religions won't cause unrest.

My proposal is that we don't add any more. Doing so will, to me, mean being hamstrung by a bug (why have religion if it doesn't work?) The Christian sects can remain combined (distinguished perhaps by traits; a Catholic leader may cause Arian generals to be less loyal or such), various pagan religions can remain pagan, and Zoroastrian and Islam can be combined. Why? Because the rate at which Persian (and other Eastern) culture was adopted and combined with Arabic tradition was truly astounding, and we can reflect this by making the two generate less unrest to each other.

An alternative is to put Zoroastrian or Islam as part of 'Pagan'.

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 04:33 EDT (US)     3 / 25       
I personally think we should have Christianity (the west), Pagan for all the "tribal" beliefs etc. & combine Muslim & Zoroastrian for the east as you could have the christian west, the old pagan religions (for the tribes , Huns etc.) & the eastern Muslim & Zoroastrian combined)

One question: when you say bugged how bugged?
Will it be game stopping or a minor fault?
I see what the unrest problem could be but that be fixed?

But i think we could still survive with only 3 religions
Its up to you guys
vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 05:31 EDT (US)     4 / 25       
The bug is that only 3 religions cause unrest. You can have at least 6 religions, just half of them will be mere cosmetic things. It is hardcoded and cannot be fixed, I think. If it wasn't, the IB guys would have done so by now.

you like something both hardcore and whack
2009 RLT & ETWH Craziest Forummer Award!
I had to remove the excessive numbers of smilies I used á la VampiricCannibal so as not to inconvenience low bandwidth users too much... - Edorix
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 09:26 EDT (US)     5 / 25       
In other words, not much needs changing, eh? Christians stay Christian, Paganism still one big parade of deities (actually smaller now), but if Zoroastrianism and Islam go together, we can't still call that Zoro can we?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 09:39 EDT (US)     6 / 25       
So we can call it Eastern!

Also. Which factions have which options, religion-wise? Can the Romans, Franks, Goths etc revert to Paganism? Can the Sassanids and Berbers convert to Islam?

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE

[This message has been edited by Drakontos (edited 04-10-2011 @ 09:52 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 09:45 EDT (US)     7 / 25       
YAY!!!!!!

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 10:03 EDT (US)     8 / 25       
I also assume the Christian and Pagan symbols will stay the same, while for Eastern we'll have a crescent and the current symbol together or something.

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 12:01 EDT (US)     9 / 25       
Ok, thanks for that vampiric canniba
I like that idea of religion swapping Drakontos, With the berbers converting to the eastern religion (like the tide of islam) & the possible christian-paganism revertion in the romans & franks, goths etc.
That could turn into some sort of christian vs pagan warfare in the west (somehow)

Edit: Also i got one question, would i be correct in saying we will not be having a jihad, crusade type thing? (Not comparing it to the crusades, but more like just a religious war to wipe out the other religion(s) etc.)

[This message has been edited by Alpha211 (edited 04-10-2011 @ 12:04 PM).]

Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 14:19 EDT (US)     10 / 25       
Quick question that I have always wondered: I noticed in BI that the Berbers are solely Christian. Were they really Christian, or was that the game's version of representing Islam?

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 15:24 EDT (US)     11 / 25       
They were Christian and Pagan. As were the Arabs, actually.

Islam only kicked off in the early 7th century with Mohammed, and didn't arrive in the Magreb until quite some time later. (well, some years after the dead of the Prophet Mohammed)

And no, Jihad and Crusades are something of Med2 - we have no means of representing such things, and neither is really in the timeframe.

How we'd trigger the possibility of conversion for the Berbers/the ability to build Mosques in place of Zoroastrian temples for the Persians, je ne sais pas.

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 11 April 2011 11:49 EDT (US)     12 / 25       
Ok thanks for that answer Drakontos

I suppose we could have different religious buildings with different effects (e.g. a mosque & Zoroastrian temple available for eastern factions (like the different pagan temples)) but rather than two different religions two different effects each with different advantages? (sorry if that was already thought of/ known but not said etc.)
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 11 April 2011 22:49 EDT (US)     13 / 25       
Combining Zoroastrianism and Islam means both temple branches don't reject each other as Christian chapels or Pagan shrines would.

Varying the bonuses is all I can think of.
How we'd trigger the possibility of conversion for the Berbers/the ability to build Mosques in place of Zoroastrian temples for the Persians, je ne sais pas.
Why, you press the hammer-like "Demolish" button, of course.

Kidding, I get what you mean - or I think I do. If we combine Zoroastrianism (such a pain having to type this word every time) with Islam, the Sassanid player's gonna find himself with an option to build Muslim mosques in his Persian towns before the Caliphate even frigging appeared.

Well, it's either that or forge a fourth religion out of stand-alone Islam, with no unrest effects upon conversion. Or we could do a historical event - if do-able at all - that revamps Zoroastrianism into Eastern-ism, making available the mosques along-side the Zoroastrian temples.

Or we could trigger a complete Muslim replacement of the Zoroastrian religion with the fall of the Sassanid Empire - preferably at the hands of the emerging Caliphate.

Well look at all the ideas I've thrown out off the top of my head!

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 03:41 EDT (US)     14 / 25       
I too have many ideas. Ones which don't involve scripting, however, are few and far between. And as we all know, I don't like scripting!

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 08:19 EDT (US)     15 / 25       
Well, I just remembered an idea. The Islam were much more religiously tolerant in captured cities to people of other religions, so they could be the faction that causes religious unrest.

No, that wouldn't work because people did eventually start to hate Islam.

Ummm, this sounds weird, but what if we made Zoroastrianism a Pagan religion. I mean, after all, if the Caliphate actually expand the way they did, then that means that the Sassanids will play a small part in the game (they were the first ones conquered, and they were beaten by a less equipped army a fraction of their size).

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 12 April 2011 10:44 EDT (US)     16 / 25       
I like that idea.

Zoroastrianism is neither Christian, nor Islamic, so therefore it must be pagan. Solves a lot of problems, no?

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 11:53 EDT (US)     17 / 25       
Good point Terikel I guess only the Sassanids would have Zoroastrianism as their religion & they could be classified as Pagan (only the sassanids have the Zor... religion & the muslims? - Caliphate, Berbers etc.)

Or we could have (as GKA said) the fall of the sassanids as a conversion (but what would we do with the "left over" Zor... civilians & buildings)
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 11:58 EDT (US)     18 / 25       
Making zoroas pagan seems good. That only affects the disorder system right? Really a shame that there are so few religion types. Arians and other christians didn't really like each other either, so more religions would be great. Is there no way to increase the nr of religions?
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 12:15 EDT (US)     19 / 25       
We can use traits. Arian family members may be less loyal to Catholic Faction Leaders or something.

My only problem with putting Zoro as pagan (which is why I put it at the end of my post) is that we're thus using one of our three slots exclusively for a religion which didn't come into existence for another 100 and something years.

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 13 April 2011 01:28 EDT (US)     20 / 25       
My only problem with putting Zoro as pagan (which is why I put it at the end of my post) is that we're thus using one of our three slots exclusively for a religion which didn't come into existence for another 100 and something years.
The 620's.

I'm kind of sad about downgrading the Sassanid religion into the pagan throng, but since that's still going to be a different, unrest-causing religion to Christianity of the ERE, I can live with that. Plus it beats combining Zoroastrianism with Islam.

Christian: WRE, ERE, VGs, OGs, Franks, RB, Burgundians, Gepids, Copts
Christian & Pagan: Berbers, Lombards, Saxons, Sklaveni, Vandals
Pagan: Huns, Alemanni, Alans, Norse, Sassanids
Islam: Caliphate

Christian & Pagan means they get to choose whether to convert or not.

And another problem may be that players can't actually convert to Islam in-game because the only faction that practices it is an emergent faction. Berbers shouldn't get to convert until they fall to the Muslim conquests.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 13 April 2011 05:22 EDT (US)     21 / 25       
And another problem may be that players can't actually convert to Islam in-game because the only faction that practices it is an emergent faction. Berbers shouldn't get to convert until they fall to the Muslim conquests.
Which is the tricky part

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 13 April 2011 06:53 EDT (US)     22 / 25       
And that the AI isn't really smart enough to demolish religious buildings to build their own.

Hence, we basically can't expect the AI to initiate and simulate the "Spread of Islam".

Bummer.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 13 April 2011 07:17 EDT (US)     23 / 25       
We could remove the temple_ prefix. They didn't exactly tear down the Churches already present in lands they conquered - they just prohibited the construction of new ones. So even if the AI is unable to destroy the churches, it can still build the Mosques. And since it'll be an AI only faction, at least at first, we can give said Mosques a stronger conversion bonus than the equivalente churches or something, when controlled by the Caliphate.

Maybe. I'm not sure what'll that'll do to the official religion unrest penalties.

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 13 April 2011 10:38 EDT (US)     24 / 25       
The temple_prefix restricts construction of temples in a settlement to only one religion's, yes?

Can it be removed for only one religion, i.e. Islam, while the other religions still need demolition of the current temple before building their own? (singling out Islam for removal of the temple_prefix)

If not, how do you prevent the same thing happening for other factions?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 06 May 2011 16:44 EDT (US)     25 / 25       
That's it, yeah. If we remove it for Islam, Islamic factions can built Mosques when other temples are present, and other factions can build temples/churches when Mosques are present.

Hypothetically, as I said. 'Official religion' stuff might be linked to it, which could confuse things.

PROCRASTINATE NOT ˇ JAMAIS ARRIERE
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Total War Heaven | HeavenGames