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Topic Subject:The Vandals
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 August 2011 10:06 EDT (US)         
I thought I'd just jump the gun here and make the thread, since we only have one going at the moment. And as the two are in the same region, having both at once could be beneficial. Balancing, gameplay mechanics, etc. Territories. Apologies if this was incorrect.

The Vandals were one of the people of the great barbarian migrations of the 4th and 5th centuries. Identified as two distinct groups, the Silingi and the Hasdingi, they crossed into the Roman Empire in 401/402, already Christianised. By 406 they and their allies the Alans and Suebi had crossed into Gaul, sacking much of Aquitania as they worked towards Iberia. In 409 they crossed the Pyrenees, and recieved lands in Hispania as foederati. But they were not finished. In 429 they crossed into Africa with their king Gaiseric, sacking Carthage and taking it as their capital in 439. In 455 they sacked Rome. Following the death of Gaiseric in 477, the kingdom began a slow decline, torn by religious divisions. In 533, the kingdom was destroyed by Belisarius, the right hand man of Emperor Justinian.

Discuss!

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AuthorReplies:
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 August 2011 10:18 EDT (US)     1 / 26       
As for my perspective:
-They ought to be a naval power. They were historically. I'm not sure how we'll represent this though... do they get Roman ships?
-Do we keep their HA or do they vanish like that of the Goths? I say they should go.
-We don't want them destroying the Berbers easily, but then they also provide a good opposing force to the Ostrogoths, who control a large swath of money-making land.
-Historically they held Carthage, Tripoli, parts of Numida, half of Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, the Baleares. Whether some of these should be made rebel to symbolise the tensions within the kingdom (which was unravelling) I leave to discussion.
-Also to consider is how much damage they did to Africa. I've heard that they were very pro-Roman, but also that they did huge damage to the infrastructure of North Africa, which combined with the Byzantine and later Islamic invasion resulted in the desertification of much of a previously much more fecund territory. However, the man who told me they did such damage was a notorious incompetent who was wrong on any other number of accounts...

So whether we put them as Germanic or Romano-Barbarian is also at question.

An interesting mechanism which we could use to limit the Vandals in Africa, and the Byzantines, with so much territory (and others) is some form of 'Devastation' tree of buildings. Present from the beginning and indestructable, the earliest limits handicap taxes, population growth... and as upgraded, the handicaps vanish until the territory is normal. This will stop factions from exploding over the map.

For the Byzantines it could symbolise Persian-Roman hostilities (although they didn't reach a head until much later, really) and for the Vandals the damage they did invading. Just my 5c.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 14 August 2011 10:55 EDT (US)     2 / 26       
About the naval power thing, how about letting them train top-tier Roman ships from captured Roman dockyards? They can't build dockyards themselves, but they can build the ships once they secure the facilities with which to do so. That way, we can even allow them the chance to own ERE fire ships if they can control one of their ports. As for the rest I really don't know if we should give them barbarian ships or a mix of both sides.

We could take their HA if we want to make them very different from what they were: another HA faction. On the other hand how about the infantry and melee cav? I suppose their cav will get lighter since N Africa isn't that suitable for heavy cav to operate in, but that's just a rough guess.

What were Vandal-Berber relations like, any idea?

The devastation tree idea isn't bad.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
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Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 14 August 2011 13:46 EDT (US)     3 / 26       
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Vandals have fireships when the Western Romans tried to retake Africa? If so, then they should have them. Perhaps give them a point or two added to the attack to show their effectiveness.

As for their roster, I would give them at least a good (Stat wise) light and heavy infantry unit, but both with not as great morale. The horse should be above average, with average morale. By this time I think it was Gibbon who said that the Vandals had lost their virtue for battle, and had gotten soft in the warm climate and grand civilization.

I'd make them Romano-Barbarian.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 20 August 2011 07:59 EDT (US)     4 / 26       
To be fair, Gibbon said a lot of things.

But otherwise, yeah. Strong ships, decent infantry, Romano-Barbarian. I kinda think they should get Dockyards, though.

RE: Berbers and Vandals - Shifting relations. Not like the Berbers were actually a unified power. Some tribes might have been friendly, others prone to raiding Vandal possessions. Or such is how I understand things.

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Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 01 September 2011 22:20 EDT (US)     5 / 26       
The Vandals did control 'an empire of grain'. They were expert pirates, raiding as far as Greece, so I definitely second the motion for a strong navy, and maybe a unit of marines? Also, their infrastructure should be relatively advanced, seeing as they 'killed the owners of large palaces and bathhouses and moved in.'

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 02 September 2011 01:41 EDT (US)     6 / 26       
they 'killed the owners of large palaces and bathhouses and moved in.'
This does not mean they know how to run the palace, maintain it, or operate the bathouses.

Many Roman-era structures were torn down in the Dark Ages so their bricks and stones could be used for houses and bakeries. Libraries become sources for tinder to light cooking fires.

Conquest does not always mean the culture of the conquered is understood and adopted. Sometimes it is merely conquest.

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 09 September 2011 01:34 EDT (US)     7 / 26       
So, barbarian infantry, good navies, excellent light cavalry, Germanic culture.

Are we done here?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 09 September 2011 05:16 EDT (US)     8 / 26       
Pretty much. Anything coming up can be thrown in later.

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"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
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Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 09 September 2011 13:10 EDT (US)     9 / 26       
Somebody care to write up a summary of units?

I'll do the intro next week.

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 30 September 2011 15:37 EDT (US)     10 / 26       
My work load hasa dramatically increased, as you may have noticed. The week's worth of time to write up the faction description came and passed.

I will still try to do that, so can't close this yet.

Also need a brief summary of the units we came up with.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 03 October 2011 04:17 EDT (US)     11 / 26       
No worries there, I'll do the unit summary. Although we haven't actually come up with any specific units except Fire Ships. The rough direction we're heading for, however, seems to be "strong ships, decent infantry (barbarian), excellent light cav, Romano-Barbarian." They were also "expert pirates, raiding as far as Greece", so "maybe a unit of marines [or pirates/ sea raiders?]" would be apt.

Also, I'm not sure whether we should put them under Romano-Barbarian or Germanic, since the former denotes factions with rather advanced yet still barbarian technology (eg. Frankia, Ostrogoths), while the latter is closer to the "thatched roofs, pulling down Roman masonry for bricks and murdering yapping priests" level, if you get my drift. So which group should they belong in?

And lastly, their "work load has dramatically increased" - no wait, oh sorry that's just Terikel bragging about his newly upgraded powers again.

So here we go:

Town Hall
Tier 1 - Peasants

Infantry
Tier 2 - Levy Spearmen
Tier 3 - Vandal Pirates/Marauders/Warriors* (halved garrison effect, medium infantry with strictly medium armour and attack)
Tier 3 - Noble Sons
Tier 4 - Heavy Spearmen
Tier 5 - Dismounted Nobles

Missile
Tier 3 - Javelineers
Tier 3 - Archers
Tier 4 - Desert Archers

Cavalry
Tier 3 - Vandal Raiders (HAs and light lancers)
Tier 4 - Alan Horse Archers (those who came with Genseric to Africa: unlockable via special building?)
Tier 5 - Vandal Noble Cavalry

Navy
Tier 3 - Vandal Pirates/.../...
Tier 3 - Boats
Tier 4 - Liburnae
Tier 5 - Fire Ships

AoR
(... camels?)
The impression given by ancient sources such as Victor of Vita, Quodvultdeus, and Fulgentius of Ruspe was that the Vandal take-over of Carthage and North Africa led to widespread destruction. However, recent archaeological investigations have challenged this assertion. Although Carthage's Odeon was destroyed, the street pattern remained the same and some public buildings were renovated. The political centre of Carthage was the Byrsa Hill. New industrial centres emerged within towns during this period.[17] Historian Andy Merrills uses the large amounts of African Red Slip ware discovered across the Mediterranean dating from the Vandal period of North Africa to challenge the assumption that the Vandal rule of North Africa was a time of economic instability.
Not bad for vandals, don't you think?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 03 October 2011 07:59 EDT (US)     12 / 26       
I would definitely put them in the former category. The Vandals did, after all, live in the former Roman homes in Africa, and their sack of Rome wasn't too barbaric.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 03 October 2011 16:57 EDT (US)     13 / 26       
AoR: Probably at least some african units. Camels, perhaps some upgraded numidian javelin cavalry, bedouin spearman and such.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 03 October 2011 17:29 EDT (US)     14 / 26       
The generic Magreb AoR, I imagine. So yeah, some Moorish units of some form.

But not Bedouin, since they are Arabs.

As for culture... I'm unsure. Who is Romano-Barb at present, and who is Barbarian? Africa certainly did become less wealthy than it had been under the Vandals, but then the Visigoths weren't exactly able administrators either. Part of me says having a Barbarian faction there could be fun, and force them to be more piratey... and part of me says we should give them the benefit of the doubt and let them be a bit Roman.

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Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 03 October 2011 22:20 EDT (US)     15 / 26       
I say Barbarian.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 04 October 2011 01:54 EDT (US)     16 / 26       
We need a bogeyman in the West.

The Vandals fit the bill.

I say barbarian, for those rabid heathen dogs!

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Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 07:50 EDT (US)     17 / 26       
But they're Arian......

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 04 October 2011 10:08 EDT (US)     18 / 26       
Arians were considered heretics by the Roman Catholics, were they not?

When the Romans were "throwing the heathens to the lions", were not most of them actually Arian Christians?

Bad jokes aside, we have many Romano-Barbarian Germanic factions, but few of the 'old breed' pure barbarians. They have the reputations, maybe undeservedly, so we might as well take advantage of that.

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|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 10-05-2011 @ 01:47 PM).]

Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 11:26 EDT (US)     19 / 26       
Let's just say that arians and catholics took turns in burning and killing each other (usually depended on the current emperor(s) faith) and in the end the arians lost.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 15:54 EDT (US)     20 / 26       
I guess, but there are so many other factions that would fit the description better than them. Factions like the Saxons, Norsemen, Alemanni, Gepids, Alans, Lombardi, and even the Visigoths and Ostrogoths to some extent have more crediblity as 'heathen factions'.

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 04 October 2011 15:56 EDT (US)     21 / 26       
the Saxons, Norsemen, Alemanni, Gepids, Alans, Lombardi
They already are Barbarian or Steppe, no?
Visigoths
Not so much...
and Ostrogoths
Not at all...

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 05 October 2011 11:53 EDT (US)     22 / 26       
I agree with Drakontos, and what Terikel said. Let's make them Germanic/Barbarian.

Any other ideas for the roster, particularly for the cavalry?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 October 2011 09:29 EDT (US)     23 / 26       
Quoted from Cambridge Medieval History, c500-700:
The Vandals had occupied the bulk of the Roman provinces of Africa, and proved stern rulers, whose expropriation of the land-owning class and persecution of Catholics made them unpopular.
Two things about Vandal rule of North Africa I've highlighted above. Any ideas as to how we should represent them?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 10-06-2011 @ 09:34 AM).]

Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 06 October 2011 09:42 EDT (US)     24 / 26       
Give them a building that has as side effect that the catholic population causes more unrest if that's possible.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 06 October 2011 16:13 EDT (US)     25 / 26       
The current BI traits make 'Arian Heretics' cause unrest. I figured we could keep the traits the same, but also allow conversion - and faction leaders of one religion/branch might cause reduced loyalty in family members of another.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 14 October 2011 06:49 EDT (US)     26 / 26       
I was thinking more like a "Tax Baron" trait or a Tier 4/5 "Inland Revenue Office" that can be unlocked as the equivalent-tier farm upgrades are built.

As for the persecution of Catholics, do you guys think we should boost the religious conversion rate/ happiness bonus/ both for Vandal churches and chapels but tie in an associated unrest penalty? As the ruling Vandals enlarged their Arian presence in each settlement it can be theorized that they also became more zealous in persecuting their Catholic subjects, hence causing more >:( and unpopularity.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
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