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Dark Ages: Roman Revival
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Topic Subject:The Eastern Roman Empire
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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 29 September 2011 20:11 EDT (US)         
We might as well at least try to finish off our faction plans, no?

Here, we can discuss the ERE - the remnants of the Roman Empire, it reached its greatest size under Justinian, before losing massive swathes of territory to the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates after the death of Mohammed. It would last until 1453, when the Ottoman Turks finally took Constantinople.

They are likely to be a powerhouse, as one of the largest empires on the map, and steps ought to be taken to limit their ability to explode across the map.

At some point I'll post a vanilla ERE roster.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
AuthorReplies:
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 28 November 2011 02:49 EDT (US)     51 / 75       
As with anything, it becomes a balancing act. As it stands though, the provinces of the ERE are likely to generate ridiculous wealth unless some form of handicap is instituted.

Particularly if we divide the vanilla provinces.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 29 November 2011 17:02 EDT (US)     52 / 75       
So fewer provinces for the ERE? I mean, the Byzantines were absolutely loaded, so there isn't too much we can do about it, but we definitely need to limit the ERE's ability to expand quickly. Maybe only give them enough starting troops to defend themselves, and leave them with a lack of military buildings, so they can't expand quickly.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 30 November 2011 02:01 EDT (US)     53 / 75       
We can limit the ERE expansion by using a historical model- have them start at war against Persia, the barbarians of the Balkans, the Alans of the Caucasus, and against the Ostrogoths. Then maybe script in a large rebel horde emerging from the Caucasus: the Turks.

That will keep them under attack, and thus on the defensive. Plus we can give them defensive traits if needed.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 30 November 2011 06:17 EDT (US)     54 / 75       
Probably give them defensive traits just to be sure. I've tried nerfing Egypt in vanilla RTW several times and buffing the Seleucids on the other hand, and my limited experience tells me that the number of provinces is the single most decisive factor in a faction's development. Starting troops and buildings don't really matter that much since the AI always finds some other devious way of generating stacks as long as its turf and tax base stays sizable.

Same goes with the Byzantines, who already start with way, way more territory than the Egyptians. Keeping them occupied with enemies on all sides is one solution to balancing, another would be to cull the overall strength of their roster - make them strong but not Urban-strong, and more expensive than other units on the same tiers. The latter applies especially to the top units, such as the Praesentalis, Bucellarii and the Excubitors, soldiers who were so lavishly equipped that the recruitment cost ought to reflect part of it, as well as the need to balance of course.

In short, defensive traits, keeping the number of territories low (hence less sliced-up), being hammered on all sides by unfriendly barbarian and civilized factions alike, and a strong but expensive roster.

We happy?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
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The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 30 November 2011 20:12 EDT (US)     55 / 75       
Sounds good. Can't limit them too much, but enough so that they don't dominate the map, but aren't completely wiped out early on. That way they are a challenge to play. Why don't we combine a one or two regions there? The defensive traits sound good. And, if anyone feels up to the challenge, the improved Roman fort idea would be good, too.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 30 November 2011 21:29 EDT (US)     56 / 75       
The finalized fort idea was something like a raised earthen platform behind the regular wooden wall, no? That way a fighting platform is simulated without making them completely OP (ie. stone walls). It wouldn't look very good the way I visualize it, but hey it's a start.

I'm afraid we'll never know precisely how much we need to limit them until the actual works begin, and of course the play-testing stage.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 01 December 2011 21:07 EDT (US)     57 / 75       
I would say that the super OP fort is once again under debate As I have said in the Roman Culture thread, the sort of fort that it appears you guys are referring to is more like a castle from a couple hundred years in the future than the Roman forts that would have been used before. This is because the Romans had switched from always keeping their armies in a potentially offensive state to a defensive one. Because of this, the Romans often set up some of the most imposing structures ever built at that time for the purpose of guarding strategically important areas.

However, I am thinking that that sort of structure is going to be a real challenge to set up. Probably something to set aside for now.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 02 December 2011 00:13 EDT (US)     58 / 75       
I agree. Probably something best left until later.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 11 December 2011 16:54 EDT (US)     59 / 75       
It looks like this is pretty much wrapped up, so I'd say that GKA's summary looks right. We'll leave the map to the actual map discussion, so right now let's look at the actual roster.

Any ideas?

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 17 January 2012 16:09 EDT (US)     60 / 75       
In remember they gave (at least at the start of the game) titles to the roman family members.

If that's a good idea to keep, here is the notitia dignitatum. We should be able to extract a few nice, historical titles out of it

Nice site btw, for those interested in the original (only translated) writings of ancient historians.
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 17 January 2012 20:13 EDT (US)     61 / 75       
Cool, Thompsoncs, that will definitely come in useful. Can u find anything like this for the WRE?

Also, what are your suggestions for the ERE roster? (One must take advantage of what little activity there is )

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel

[This message has been edited by Agrippa 271 (edited 01-17-2012 @ 08:13 PM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 18 January 2012 03:09 EDT (US)     62 / 75       
As I recall from reading above, we considered the Vanilla BI roster quite adequate. No changes were really necessary.

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Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 18 January 2012 09:39 EDT (US)     63 / 75       
Agrippa, the lower part of the notitia dignitatum is for the west.

And yeah, I was trying to revive the roman revival mod.
This started in same period as my aoe1 mod and that has just seen it's second release.

Like I said before: We should make quick, broad concepts for all factions and the basic things. Than after some playtesting you can add things we thought are still missing. Add them, test again and so on. Once we think it's complete, we can go through the balance part. I have the idea that this mod has come to a stop, because we are discussing too long over too fine details. Every modder and game developer knows he can't make something perfect the 1st time. I hope still small burst of activity will get this mod moving again. It certainly has potential.

Another idea that might help this mod forward is this:
I expect most people (including me) mostly check the home page and the recent forum post. The roman revival threads dont show up there. Adding them to it might make them more visible.

[This message has been edited by Thompsoncs (edited 01-18-2012 @ 07:20 PM).]

Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 18 January 2012 20:00 EDT (US)     64 / 75       
Agrippa, the lower part of the notitia dignitatum is for the west.
Oh. I didn't really bother to read it so...(Yeah, I'm great, aren't I?)

I think you are right. I am currently working on the map, but it may be a while before it's done, I can only work on the weekends, and haven't gotten anything done recently due to exams, and I won't get anything done this weekend either. I am very busy right now. Sorry . May be able to get a bit done on Sunday, but I can't make any promises.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 14 February 2012 16:06 EDT (US)     65 / 75       
I agree with the Ideas put forward
I think it would be a good idea to have good, strong (Superior to equivalent tier?) units. But to make them more expensive to recruit & produce is a must.
I also agree with leaders having more defensive traits. (Possibly the trend of ERE generals etc. having more Influence & Some management based traits with fewer strong commanding generals)
Perhaps a smaller amount of initial units. (Let the ERE rely more on its City & Fort bases for defense than mobile armies near the start?)
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 14 February 2012 20:00 EDT (US)     66 / 75       
I like your idea about having the ERE start out with fewer initial troops. Since around the time of this mod there was a big war between the Byzantines and the Sassanids, concentrating most of both empires' troops on the border that they share would be a good idea too.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel

[This message has been edited by Agrippa 271 (edited 02-14-2012 @ 08:01 PM).]

Alpha211
Legionary
posted 15 February 2012 02:09 EDT (US)     67 / 75       
I agree Agrippa, it would be a good idea to have the majority of the ERE troops near the Sassanid borders
A conflict near the start would be able to draw resources from the two factions so less well organised factions (near their borders) could have a chance.
Rinster
Legionary
posted 15 February 2012 08:25 EDT (US)     68 / 75       
yeah, I like the ideas of the ERE troops being concentrated in forts along the sassanid border, so that the caliphate gets a good chance to attack the ERE or the sassanids (who have their troops on the ERE border as well) before either of those two factions can respond

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
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Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 15 February 2012 22:49 EDT (US)     69 / 75       
So, we are in agreement? Can we have somebody draw up a list of the roster?

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 22 February 2012 14:14 EDT (US)     70 / 75       
This area seems to be quiet for some days

Do we need more ideas, I could put forward some
I noticed that CKA mentioned a roster plan

Quote:

_____________________________________________________

Town Hall
Tier 2 - Vigiles

Infantry
Tier 3 - Limitanei
Tier 3 - Legio Lanciarii
Tier 4 - Comitatenses
Tier 5 - Comitatus Praesentalis

Missile
Tier 3 - Desert Skirmishers (shared with Sassanids)
Tier 3 - Archers
Tier 4 - (1 Exp) Archers
Tier 4 - Eastern Archers

Cavalry
Tier 3 - Equites Auxilia
Tier 4 - Hippo-toxotai
Tier 4 - Equites Catafractarii
Tier 5 - Bucellarii (General's Bodyguard, composite bows and broadswords, a blend of Huns and Goths)
Tier 6 - Excubitors (the ultimate Byzantine hammer, heavy and shiny armour and powerful charge, expensive too - morale bonus?)

Siege
Tier 4 - Ballistae
Tier 5 - Onagers
Tier 5 - Scorpions
Tier 5 - Carriage Ballistae
Tier 6 - Heavy Onagers

Navy
Tier 3 - Liburnae
Tier 4 - Dromons
Tier 5 - Fire Ships

____________________________________________________

Would we be happy with that?
I like the look of it
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 24 February 2012 02:17 EDT (US)     71 / 75       
This is the Vanilla roster, ja? (I don't have it in front of me to check).

If so, then yes, we are agreed on this.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 24 February 2012 16:44 EDT (US)     72 / 75       
Looks good. Discussion of allocation of territory going to be left to the map thread?

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 28 February 2012 18:25 EDT (US)     73 / 75       
Greece, Thrace, Anatolia, half of the Levant, no?

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 29 February 2012 01:25 EDT (US)     74 / 75       
That sounds about right.

They start off rich and powerful. At least we managed to break rich Egypt away from them otherwise they would totally dominate the gameplay.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 15 March 2012 13:27 EDT (US)     75 / 75       
Ok, cool

Do we need any more discussion in this topic?

Its not been commented on for sometime, are we ok with ERE aspects?
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