Is The Best Defence A Good Offence? - Total War Heaven Forum

Topic Subject: Is The Best Defence A Good Offence?

The Mad Monk
Legionary

posted 15 November 2008 16:55 EDT (US)

Because I have won many a battle, and in that, many a war, by using that principle!

Such As This one time...
*Eyes Glaze over and Flash Back Appears*

**Setting

**Massilia
**Pre-Marian Reforms
**I (Julii) was ending a detachment from Siege Group B to **reinforce Massilia from the Segesta Area through the **Gallic Express (That's what I call that little trench **between the Mountains that is crossed by the River **between Segesta and Massilia).

***Units

***Roman Garrison Detachment vs. Full Gallic Army
****Romans
****2 Hastati/1 Velite/3 Townguards
*****Gallic Horde
*****1 Warlord/6 Spearman/3 Peasants/4 Naked Fanatics

*Order of Battle

*Alas! I am ambushed in the Gallic Express by a full Gallic Horde that was ready to pounce on Segesta! I am outnumbered 3:1! The ambush fails and I am able to retreat a short distance, but to no avail, as the Gauls follows me and engages my likkle (-on purpose) detachment, expecting an quick, easy and decisive victory. Boy, where they wrong!

*I set my TownGuards in an Echelon with my left flank Refused with 1 Hastati behind the third, and farthest refused, unit of Townguard, and my other Hastati covering the Fragile Right Flank and my Velites.

*(I got that idea from the Battle of Gaugumela (How Alexander set up his infantry))

*The Battle Begins!!!

* Balh, blah, blah. the Gauls move up to my unit in a long line. Waffle, waffle, waffle, Short Missile Exchange. Whadda, Whidda, Whodda, Alas! Finally He Advances!

*Just as expected, he quickly engages my Right Flank, which counter-charges, and has to charge a bit longer towards my left Flank, which is refused (Remember?), in whhich I also counter charge but with my Hidden Hastati which catches the Gauls by surprise and launches them back a bit and forcing him to commit his reserves!

*Just as his Reserves crash are about to crash into my line, I withdraw the Hastati and counter charging with the TownGuards at the same time!

*Then vice-versa! The Townguards retreat after a short Brawl and the Hastati charge without guard mode on this time as do my other Hastati on the Right Flank!

Leaving me with the Win!

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So the Question is-

Was their easier ways to win without taking these tremendous casualties on both sides?

Have you ever won a victory like this and howso to help other (and me) fully comprehend the strategy of Offensive Defence?

*****Please spare no expense or detail in writing!*****

Discussion's will follow!

*Roman General steps forward to speak to Caesar*
We have received word we just beat the Creten's at Sparta!
*Man whispers in General's Ear*
No! Alas!? We beat the SPARTANS at CRETE!
-From History of the World:Part 1-
-By Mel Brooks-

[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited 11-15-2008 @ 04:59 PM).]

Author

Replies:

The Mad Monk
Legionary

posted 23 November 2008 13:54 EDT (US) 1 / 11

So.....yeah?

Gallowglass
Legionary

posted 23 November 2008 13:56 EDT (US) 2 / 11

Exactly what we were thinking

I didn't quite follow this the first time I read it. I still don't.

------m------m------
(o o)
(~)

Monkey beats bunny. Please put Monkey in your signature to prevent the rise of bunny.
m0n|<3yz r 2 pwn n00b

wolfthe3rd
Legionary

posted 24 November 2008 05:52 EDT (US) 3 / 11

yeh i hav
bahahahaha

Waffentraeger
Legionary
(id: Daelon)

posted 24 November 2008 19:28 EDT (US) 4 / 11

Can you put it into simpler terms, instead of a story, it would be easier to answer the question.

Emperor Augustus
Legionary

posted 26 November 2008 05:19 EDT (US) 5 / 11

Whats with the stars? Makes things really hard to read.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, is refused the right term to be using? I've got no idea what you're trying to say.

I set my TownGuards in an Echelon with my left flank Refused with 1 Hastati behind the third, and farthest refused, unit of Townguard, and my other Hastati covering the Fragile Right Flank and my Velites

Reinforced, perhaps?

I'm sorry, I have no idea at all what you're trying to say about this battle. Screenshots work a treat. So do diagrams. Better descriptions even.

Andalus
Legionary

posted 26 November 2008 18:03 EDT (US) 6 / 11

A refused flank is when the end unit is turned back at an angle - you are refusing the enemy a flank.

I often find an offensive defence to be incredibly effective. It works best with cavalry strong armies, allowing you to keep the enemy from fully engaging, while harassing them.

If facing a mostly infantry opponent, I will always send my cavalry forward. When the battle lines meet, I will let my centre absorb the charge then strike back with my flanks.

The exception is with factions like Germania. Not only do they have excellent charge bonuses, they have that wonderful warcry. With them, I will generally launch a full on attack as soon as the lines are close.

[This message has been edited by Andalus (edited 11-26-2008 @ 06:11 PM).]

Emperor Augustus
Legionary

posted 26 November 2008 19:49 EDT (US) 7 / 11

Ah I see. Now it makes a little more sense.

Waffentraeger
Legionary
(id: Daelon)

posted 26 November 2008 20:39 EDT (US) 8 / 11

This seems like one of those things.. "The firetruck stalks it's pray.."

Monk, take it out of story mode bro and I will definitely give you my 100% attention and give you some pro-tips.

(You know, because I'm a pro, right?)

PrinceofMacedon
RTW Ladder Leader

posted 26 November 2008 23:15 EDT (US) 9 / 11

Is The Best Defence A Good Offence?

The best defense is a good defense. If you're attacking, then you're not actually defending. You're really just posing a philosophical question here. I definitely favor the offensive, but I won't call it 'defensive.'

In any case, I'd characterize your counter-attack as being a defensive action (or counter-offensive perhaps). You let the enemy come to you, and then you attacked (in a local sector) to secure your defensive positioning.

The difference between Alexander at Gaugamela & yourself here is that Alex advanced against the enemy. He might've formed defensively, but he didn't sit back and wait for the enemy to attack him.

Was their easier ways to win without taking these tremendous casualties on both sides?

What were the casualties on both sides? Also, for every battle, there's always something else you could've done (for better or worse).

Have you ever won a victory like this and howso to help other (and me) fully comprehend the strategy of Offensive Defence?

I've won several victories like this, but as I said, I prefer to attack, and I don't consider your actions as being Offensive (or Defensive-Offensive). I consider your moves to be mainly Defensive since you sat there, and let your enemy bring the fight to you.

"It is a lovely thing to live with courage and to die leaving behind an everlasting renown." - ALEXANDER THE GREAT

Meyerk
Legionary

posted 01 December 2008 19:11 EDT (US) 10 / 11

One thing you might want to do is leave an exposed flank of town watchmen, with some hastati/principes/other pilum-throwing infantry behind and set Fire at Will on, that way when the enemy charges, you can hit their flank back. Is that the gheneral idea that you used.

Rex84
Legionary

posted 05 December 2008 18:04 EDT (US) 11 / 11

Two things:

- What was the terrain like, especially in terms of elevation? Were you defending high ground?
- If you are outnumbered and fighting hardy enemy troops like the Fanatics, it's hard to win without sustaining heavy casualties because it takes a lot of effort to soften & break the enemy line if you don't have enough sheer numbers to overwhelm them. You can generally win these battles, but you'll always have to do some heavy lifting.

"Cowardice and stupidity are vices which,
disgraceful as they are in private to those who have them,
are when found in a general the greatest of public calamities."
- Polybius of Megalopolis

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