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CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 09 January 2009 16:21 EDT (US)         
About Extended Cultures:
Extended Cultures (XC) is a RTW modification that aims to bring historical accuracy but also show how different factions could have evolved had history taken a different path, with an eye to fun and challenging gameplay. The mod is similar to vanilla in look and feeling but expands the original by bringing new factions, several reworked units and new buildings. In addition to this, a culture system that makes an unique use of RTW:BI features and a large set of new character traits that extensively helps in role-playing will ensure an unique feeling of diversity for many factions.
You can read more here.

XGM-XC contains 16 playable factions, and four non-playable factions. Fourteen factions are from vanilla (unmodified) RTW; the other six are new.
The new factions are:
Bactria (replaces Britons)
The Ptolemaic Empire (replaces Egypt)
Saba (replaces Dacia)
Roman Rebels (non-playable, replaces Romans (Scipii))
The Independent Greek City States (non-playable, replaces Romans (Brutii))
Eastern Kingdoms (non-playable, replaces Numidia)
And the Celts (non-playable, replaces Romans (Senate))

As is clear from the list, the Romans have been unified.

Extended Cultures will run on RTW 1.5, BI 1.6, or Alex.

Extended Cultures is a fully mod-foldered mod, which means you can install it along with other mod-foldered mods, such as Amazon: Total War. Extended Cultures' installer will automatically search for your copy of RTW; you may need to direct it to where you want however. The installer will install all of the files to the folder "xc" which it will create.

Current version is 4 Gamma.

Changes and Additions include:
Many updates to the map
New Governor units replace recruitable generals
Many changes to traits and ancillaries
Several new garrison scripts
Emergent Bactria and Parthia added to non-Senate campaign
Gaul now has loyalty with Celts as shadow faction

4 Gamma is not save compatible with 4 Beta.

You can install any new version on top of any previous version.

You can download the mod here.

And you can take a look at the read-me here.

This thread is for any questions or comments you may have.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.

[This message has been edited by CaesarVincens (edited 02-01-2010 @ 09:22 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 20 January 2010 17:49 EDT (US)     101 / 188       
i've tried to play greece and macedon

with the greek cities i couldnt make a ceasefire with macedon and they came with 2 full stacks

when i used macedon i had the greeks for ally and the celts attacked me so i took my forces to the north, after i did that the greeks attacked me in the south

i've also checked the upkeep costs and its very unreal, i strongly preferred the old way

the only sucess was that i finally have been able to defeat pyrrhos but now his followers and the rebels are on a good way to destroy me
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 20 January 2010 19:26 EDT (US)     102 / 188       
Depending on the difficulty you use, Extended Cultures will be nearly impossible.

As the Greek Cities, you will have to attack Macedon almost immediately or move somewhere else. Likewise, with Macedon, you will have to defeat the Celts then probably destroy the Greeks.

The high upkeep costs prevent the AI from making huge number of stacks. They also require the player to build up their infrastructure more before expanding a lot.
You must also be more strategic and tactical with your armies. Flanking is more important than ever. And charges against engaged enemies are also critical.

The best thing to do is experiment, if one tactic doesn't seem to be working, try another.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 20 January 2010 19:49 EDT (US)     103 / 188       
well its just frustrating, with greeks i couldnt do anything because macedon attacked me immediately and with macedon i was finally able to beat the celts but then im loosing my southern cities...idk which experiment i could do but hoping that peace will last/will be established
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 21 January 2010 01:45 EDT (US)     104 / 188       
Unfortunately, the developers of RTW did see fit to put a proper diplomacy system in. So we modders must make do as best we can. My suggestion is that if you don't already, play the campaign on medium or hard. Diplomacy is slightly better at lower difficulty levels.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 21 January 2010 18:01 EDT (US)     105 / 188       
well ok i somehow discoverd a way to suceed with greeks over the macedons but it took me like 5 attempts to find a sucessful opening on vh campaign but still why would you the factions that much starting units

for example: the 2 full stacks for the celts in northern greece require the huge forces for macedon and also a necessity to give the greek cities some of the strongest units - wouldnt it be more easy to eliminate that all?building up from the scratch would be more intersting wouldnt it?

on a sidenote: whats the Best buildorder after capturing cities with different cultures to get up decent reinforcements for my army?
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 22 January 2010 01:24 EDT (US)     106 / 188       
If you are looking for quick units, the auxiliary barracks is best outside your homeland, but generally, the best units you start with can't be retrained until you have at least a third level barracks. Usually, you will need to send your units back to a large city to retrain. It's best to have reinforcements waiting already built.

While starting from scratch may interesting, that wasn't the historical situation, nor would it be balanced for the player would take off much quicker.

Still, a few changes in descr_strat and its campaign script would let you start from scratch if you wish.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 22 January 2010 15:24 EDT (US)     107 / 188       
ok ill go with the auxiliary barracks then, producing reinforcements before you need them is quite difficult with those upkeep costs

what would you say is the best time to get a colony?is it even a good idea to wait 8 rounds for that?
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 22 January 2010 19:30 EDT (US)     108 / 188       
Generally, I do no build colonies until I've conquered a bit further on. Before the unrest from conquering the town has died down, you don't usually want to build a colony.

I think you'll find that you have to be slower and more strategic than most mods or certainly vanilla RTW. It takes 21 turns to build a third level barracks if the native culture is different from yours. That means you will have to send troops home to retrain unless you are using locals.

If you are playing as the Greek Cities or Macedon, the Seleucids and Egypt are good targets once your home area is secure, whereas the North and West are more difficult.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 22 January 2010 20:47 EDT (US)     109 / 188       
i've eliminated macedon, got 5 italian cities yet, many of independent greeks and the 3 western seleucid cities so the next targets are to finish off the romans while beating back thrace which started to attack me as expected and in the east im currently dealing with pontus so im pretty bound and wont be able to expand into the heartlands of egypt and the seleucids

surprisingly the gauls absolutely destroyed the celts in the civil war but seem to be destroyed by spain soon so this might be interesting

im already curious about the new scythia
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 23 January 2010 12:58 EDT (US)     110 / 188       
Well, it sounds like you are doing quite well now. Enjoy your campaign. And feel free to put up some screenshots.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 23 January 2010 13:39 EDT (US)     111 / 188       
i would appreciate some other opinions to compare my own experiences but somehow it looks like none is playing this mod

i dont think i made any screenshots and since creating and uploading is quite strange im not really planning on
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 23 January 2010 17:22 EDT (US)     112 / 188       
There are others who play, but no one on RTWH who does is vocal about it. Also, Extended Cultures is still very new; we've only been around for a little more than a year, and have mostly spread by word of mouth. (No big previews or ad type things)

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 31 January 2010 02:19 EDT (US)     113 / 188       
I thought I would give everyone an update on the state of Extended Cultures.

Extended Cultures 4 Gamma is in the final stage of bug testing and will likely be released in the next few days.
It features many changes. New units, many new traits, changes to the map, Bactria and Parthia will be emergent factions now, and, finally, flaming javelins!

After the release of 4 Gamma, we will begin work on 4 Delta, the last release before Extended Cultures 4's full release.

Delta will include an overhaul of the temple system making it more streamlined and intuitive, instead of several temples that seem to be the same, each temple will have distinct advantages, and disadvantages, especially in regards to traits. Finally, we will have converted Scythia, who was a declining power at this time, into Sarmatia, the true lords of the Steppes in the 3rd century BC.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 01 February 2010 21:21 EDT (US)     114 / 188       
Extended Cultures 4 Gamma is now available.

Among the changes it makes are
-Many updates to the map
-New Governor units replace recruitable generals
-Many changes to traits and ancillaries
-Several new garrison scripts
-Emergent Bactria and Parthia added to non-Senate campaign
-Gaul now has loyalty with Celts as shadow faction
-New projectile for Iberian Heavy Scutarii and Ambakaro; it's hot!

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 10 February 2010 14:06 EDT (US)     115 / 188       
its quite funny that gamma version is ready because i was just about to give some feedback to the beta version
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 10 February 2010 15:42 EDT (US)     116 / 188       
Well, I hope we addressed at least some of the topics you had.


Also, 4 Gamma v2 is available, it fixes some bugs with the provincial campaigns, but there will be a new version by the weekend.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 10 February 2010 16:41 EDT (US)     117 / 188       
do you mean the delta version will be released on weekend?

on a sidenote:why was the ability to produce naval units disabled for the celts?with boats they could use the forces from the british islands and they would really need them

i wonder if this will be changed in the final version?
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 11 February 2010 00:52 EDT (US)     118 / 188       
No, I mean 4 Gamma v3 will be up; Delta won't be here for a couple months at least.

I'll have to check that, I don't see why we would have disabled boats for the Celts. Sometimes things get overlooked in other changes.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 11 February 2010 07:31 EDT (US)     119 / 188       
i think it was the alpha version where i made celts playable and it wasnt possible

why are celts and scythia non-playable btw?
Lord of Lent
Legionary
posted 11 February 2010 08:22 EDT (US)     120 / 188       
Well, I downloaded Extended Cultures, version gamma v2 an hour ago and I believe it's bugged. I played with 3.3.5 before and it worked okay, except I couldn't play historical battles.

Now I cannot play any Imperial campaign, nor I can play any provincial campaign, except Bactria. I can play historical battles now though...but not all of them.

What should I do?
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 11 February 2010 08:42 EDT (US)     121 / 188       
i downloaded the gamma version and could start an imperial campaign so maybe just reinstalling will help
Lord of Lent
Legionary
posted 11 February 2010 08:49 EDT (US)     122 / 188       
Crusiminator, didn't you have any problems? Because it would be strange if I had all the problems and you had none...

Edit: 3.3.5 doesn't work anymore...

[This message has been edited by Lord of Lent (edited 02-11-2010 @ 10:46 AM).]

CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 11 February 2010 12:25 EDT (US)     123 / 188       
Lord of Lent, it sounds like there is a serious problem with your RTW install, if you installed any mods that aren't modfoldered (as Extended Cultures is), then Extended Cultures probably won't work. You might try reinstalling RTW then Extended Cultures.

Crusiminator,
Scythia has a provincial campaign with Parthia because there are different versions of their units for the player. The Celts are non-playable because they are designed to represent the less organized tribes of Gauls and Celts.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Lord of Lent
Legionary
posted 12 February 2010 08:36 EDT (US)     124 / 188       
Well...

I did re-install RTW 1.5 and installed the 3.4 gamma version. I still wasn't able to start an imperial campaign, so I returned to my desktop. Then I got a message which said:

Script Error in

xc/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campagin/descr_strat.txt at line 1747, column 12

could not create settlement at script line 1747

Maybe this can solve the problem?
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 12 February 2010 10:16 EDT (US)     125 / 188       
i remember the only problem i had was in the alpha version i think where the game got an error in my pontus campaign when i sieged the eastern kingdoms but this got fix

besides that i got no problems besides the usual game crashes from time to time

to the gameplay

with the increased costs for units the game is extremely challenging now if you play on vh/med so i would even say with most civs it would be impossible to win on vh/vh because then units like thorakitai, triari or gaesatae would never rout and you almost cant defeat them with infantry

in my opinion the unit costs dont equal the unit strength for all civs

i dont exactly know the starting values from triari but after a while the romans are able to build them with one silver chevron and more or less armory upgrades so they have 15 attack and 30 def for a price of 2700 and 900 upkeep

so i play carthage and get libyan spearmen for 2100 and 850 upkeep that have stats of 9 attack and 20 defence, even phoenician-libyan assault infantry where i have to spend 10k on the building have worse stats and even with upgrades i just reach 11 attack and 25 defence and their price is 3250 and 1000 upkeep

i wouldnt mind that but in fact that elephants are worthless due to the increased morale the power of carthage is gone not to mention that its extremely hard to reinforce your armies in italy

its even worse if you compare the punic infantry with gaesatae - even their 2 turn building time doesnt compensate

the best punic unit comparing price/strength are the numidian nobles, for 1500 upkeep costs sacred bands must have +50% attack and armor - they are even more expensive than war elephants
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 12 February 2010 15:27 EDT (US)     126 / 188       
Crusiminator,
Zarax (our unit coder) did balance the units' stats and costs for medium battle difficulty. Playing on very hard will truly be very hard. And you are correct that not all factions are equal, some are better than others in regards to infantry or morale or whatever. Carthage's civic troops are rather weak, but they can recruit many types of auxiliary local troops, more than the Romans. If you haven't already discovered, battles last long in Extended Cultures than vanilla RTW and many mods, so elephants can't just break a unit with the new settings (garrison types excepted).

Lord of Lent,
That indeed does help. Can you post your install options (which can be found in xc/data/XGM-XC_version_information.txt)?

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Lord of Lent
Legionary
posted 12 February 2010 15:45 EDT (US)     127 / 188       
Here you are:

Extended Greek Mod-Extended Cultures version 4 Gamma v2

BI: No
Alex: No
Steam: No
Movement Rates: Slower
Landbridges: On
Border style: XC
Red Line: On
Prometheus Cities: Installed
AI Bonuses: Unreduced
Loyalty: Off
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 12 February 2010 17:04 EDT (US)     128 / 188       
well the campaign difficulty doesnt really matter imo in terms of price/strength for units, its true that carthage can recruit a lot of auxilia but the good ones are just in spain(cavalry,celtiberians)

in italy i can get greek thureopoi for an upkeep price of 850 which is more than princeps, italian infantry does ok but is also weaker

its just strange that one civ gets stronger units for the about the same price and also great upgrades from temples

indeed do battles last longer but elephants are seriously absolutely worthless now considering their price - buying 2 units of libyan infantry is a much better decision

dont get me wrong, i was indeed able to take out the romans but my strategy was based on transporting and refilling troops in carthage city plus using 5-6 generals in one stack because i could never buy decent amounts of cavalry

about the greeks: this civ is really obsolete because its wiped out by macedon after a few turns and all they have left is their cretan city - even the roman rebels would last longer - i dont really think that reflects the idea of the extended greek mod

new units: in my carthage campaign i let rome alive until it grew to a huge civ but the unit roster didnt get expanded - maybe i missed that somewhere but i thought thats the condition for marian reformations

germans: i think berserkers are too strong now, they are very cheap and their upkeep is quite low and they are available everywhere; since i really like the germans i used them in all versions and it got very very easy now even on vh/med - they seem to be as strong as in vanilla

if you appreciate my inputs i will continue reviewing my experiences
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 13 February 2010 14:43 EDT (US)     129 / 188       
I'll have Zarax look at the units since he is the one in charge of those.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 14 February 2010 05:32 EDT (US)     130 / 188       
Ok, let's see:

- Roman roster: Their infantry is comparatively cheaper because historically they had a huge manpower advantage and were relentless in churning new armies.
Remember that during the punic wars they won mostly because no matter the losses they always could churn out another legion.

- Morale: I noticed that too many units behave a bit too well, especially mid-tiers.
I just committed a global readjustment and I'm testing the effects and fixed the principes which were getting the wrong morale level.

- Temple upgrades: Those are the problem here. They are an XGM left-over and are due to a global restructuring for Delta version most likely.

- Carthage: Their roster is historically accurate.
Their best troops were in Iberia, where you can find units that are a match for their roman counterpart.

- GCS: Looks like they need a slight monument boost for AI, the player side is fine and a manageable challenge.
Oh, and this is not XGM so they are comparatively weaker as historically was.

- Bersekers: Looks like we have definitely different experiences here. In my campaigns they are useful for breaking the enemy morale but not quite the battle winner due to their lower numbers, at least against romans.

- Italy: Admittedly Italy could use at least one better AOR unit but we are rather short in the artwork department so roster changes needs some time.

- Marian reforms: You have to let the romans get a huge city outside Rome and wait a random number of turns after, usually not many though.

That said, beating the romans is supposed to be a challenge.
Historically they won because nobody else at the time could afford such a slugging match in the long run.

Both punic wars were lost by Carthage because Rome could always churn out one more fleet/one more legion.
In XC it means that you have to prepare yourself to churn out lots of reinforcements.

My personal strategy relies on outgunning the romans by having an heavy infantry stack backed up by half stack of numidian cavalry as player controlled reinforcement.
This way while the romans are pinned they get depleted from the javelin fire until they crumble.

BTW, I did boost elephant stats for Gamma, do you think they are still underpowered?
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 14 February 2010 08:13 EDT (US)     131 / 188       
ok i agree that the romans had a huge manpower advantage and its ok to make their infantry comparatively better but then you should also consider that carthage had by far the superior cavalry which was responsible for cannae so carthage should have stronger/cheaper cavalry imo

im really surprised about your berserker experience, with their bonus against armour they absolutely destroyed the roman armies and made them rout

the battles were like:take 10 berserkers, activate warcry and send them onto the romans and wait until they rout so you can chase them down with cav

sure they are only 40 but they have 2 hitpoints so its almost twice the strength

why carthage lost the 2nd punic war is still a riddle as far as i know - the romans wouldnt have left their cities and meet hannibal once again on the field but there are 2 questions left where i havent found an answer yet: why was the rich carthage not able to bribe the roman allies to change sides like hannibal's intention was - the romans couldnt have punished them for breaking up?why did carthage not support hannibal in italy?their fleet wouldnt have been able to beat the roman one but they could have sent reinforcements or alternatively destroy the roman fleet when they are inside of their ports?

i used the regular elephants of carthage in gamme version as well as mercenary war elephants and they very underpowered

i used the elephants to flank but there was no effect - even after 2-3 charges their hastati/princeps wouldnt have eventually rout

then i tried to just run through their lines to break up their formations so that my other forces would be able to move between - the effect was also quite low and didnt really decide the battles

today i used mercenary war elephants when i played the romans - i ran them into some numidian skirmishers and they died - while im aware that javelins are now very good against elephants i thought dont be a fool and wait until they cant fire their missiles but as long as the carthagian general was alive they also didnt rout and hit me down from 36 to 21 men - thats quite a lot considering the price for those elephants

another thing that is bothering me is the greek generals - i think it was caesar who told me that they are footmen because of historical accuracy - that might be true but the greek campaign is really annoying because until you get 2-3 politikoi macedon and the celts will always have 1/3 of their units or even more still alive and its like you have to do one battle 2 times and the independent greeks have mounted generals like all other civs

i think in this case, even when leaders like miltiades probably fought inside of their phalanx, the greeks should get mounted generals like all other civs too

edit:the upkeep price of greek thureopoi is 850 while regular heavy peltasts or illyrian peltasts upkeep is 450 and they have almost equal stats - was this done intentionally?

[This message has been edited by Crusiminator (edited 02-17-2010 @ 04:12 PM).]

Zarax
Legionary
posted 17 February 2010 16:48 EDT (US)     132 / 188       
Carthage had huge manpower problems.
They couldn't use their citizen troops or the libyians would rebel against them.

Thureophoroi gets higher price because they are better equipped and trained, plus they don't root as easy.

Anyway, since you seem very attentive towards game balance I made a test exe for you to try.

www.wmwiki.com/hosted/cv/test.exe

Let me know how battles feel on M.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 17 February 2010 17:54 EDT (US)     133 / 188       
sorry the link didnt work

you are right balance is quite important for me in strategy games - if the romans get strong units with great god powers then other civs must get somethinng to compensate

thats why carthage should get other advantages - cheaper/more mercenaries, stronger/cheaper cavalry, extra trading boni etc

other civs should be redone as well

some prices, especially the upkeep costs, dont equal the unit strengths like in case of illyrian peltasts and greek thureopoi which cost almost twice as much but their stats say they arent even 50% better

on another thing - yesterday i played macedon and took out the greek city states within 6 turns on vh/med - the result is that greeks are the weakest civ by far(and also the AI macedon takes out greece besides gortyn immediately)
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 18 February 2010 17:36 EDT (US)     134 / 188       
Try this link

If it doesn't work, type or copy this in to the browser bar: "www.wmwiki.com/hosted/cv/test.exe"

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 18 February 2010 19:30 EDT (US)     135 / 188       
I might give a slight cavalry price discount to carthage, we'll see about that... GCS are going to get stronger AI bonuses for sure.

On thureophoroi: they are quite a bit stronger than heavy peltasts, illiryans are barbarians and fight better for their level though.

Also, keep in mind that 50% more expensive does not equal to 50% stronger, the higher you go in level the less cost effective an unit becomes.

This is made to specifically discourage elite spam and help more realistic recruitment.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 18 February 2010 19:34 EDT (US)     136 / 188       
ok it works now?what exactly did you change and want me to look for?the morale on med or more?
Zarax
Legionary
posted 19 February 2010 05:59 EDT (US)     137 / 188       
The main changes is morale, there are some minor fixes for other stuff but I'm interested in fine tuning balance now.

In my test a charge in the back is now enough to make engaged mid level units run but I need some extra testing.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 19 February 2010 10:25 EDT (US)     138 / 188       
ok i did some testings - main focus was romans vs. pyrrhos

it worked out quite well, after his death charges and surrounding the 2 bronze chevron phalangites made them rout quickly

then i did macedon against celtic hordes and the same result - the celts ran their general into my phalanx, he did and flanking made them rout

last test was macedons against greeks - again no problem to make athenian hoplites rout even when their general was alive

i think morale is quite fine in the first 2 tests - athenian hoplites on the other hand well their price is insane - shouldnt rout quickly at least as long as the general is alive

--------------------------------------------------------------
you said the higher the tier the less cost effective the units are - but what is the point to build it then?

if i play the gauls - i can make gaesatae with level 3 barracks which cost 1300 and 900 upkeep, have 2 hitpoints, take 2 turns but also have a missile weapons

chosen swordmen cost 2500 and 900 upkeep, 1 hitpoint and 1 turn but also require a king's hall and level 4 barracks

gaesatae are for sure the better choice - you can build them earlier, they have a devastating missile weapon and you dont need to pay 15k until you can build them like chosen swordmen

as macedon there is also not much motivation to go for foot companions instead of phalangites and xystorophoi instead of lonchorophoi

the point is also you can rebuild lower tier units in more settlements than higher tier

i think the restriction with not being able to build armies from foreign barracks is enough so imo barracks should take a few less turns to build and differences between tiers should be significant

i think that would also help the AI on harder levels to get access to higher tier units that are stronger and have a higher morale

at this point i want to mention that your mod is by far the best version of this game - a few things should be done imo and the game would be the perfect mix of fun and challenge

so my concrete suggestions

overall

- remove some starting stacks to let the game start more from "scratch"
- extend the difference between low and high tier units in attack, defence and morale
- explicit different boni for different civs

some examples

carthage: i just realised that carthage have temples for yamm and milquart - both give the same - what about changing one into exp or weapon/armor upgrades?the tophet of carthage should give some too

boni could be the cav or improved trades because carthage was more a trading nation than a military

greece: better governance(boni for generals and less corruption)

-----------------------------------------------------------
(in the former versions i often played on vh/vh and with some civs it worked quite well - with the new cost system its not possible anymore because you loose too much units in battles on vh/vh and cant rebuild enough

so i was wondering if the incomes on vh could be increased and therefore the AI gets some other boni like faster xp because i like challenges but i really dislike the challenges being based on economic restrictions)
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 19 February 2010 14:04 EDT (US)     139 / 188       
Temples are going to be worked over for the next version.

Just as a general reminder, we are moving from one system to another, so we still have left-overs.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 19 February 2010 20:12 EDT (US)     140 / 188       
Crusiminator, I suggest you at least reduce AI bonuses if you want to play VH.
The mod is really tuned to give a balanced challenge on M, higher difficulty does not help.

Gaesatae and bersekers will loose their extra HP as I found the effect too unbalancing under the current system so in the future they will be good but not exactly a better choice than higher level units.

I will also recheck Athenian hoplites and the like because they are supposed to have pretty good morale, it might be an oversight or you may have gotten lucky though.

About higher level units: stats don't always tell the whole story.

Most higher level units are more survivable than their lower counterpart even though there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in stat.
Morale wise there is a definite gap that makes elites much harder to rout, in many cases you also have to take into account superior armor or equipment which makes them more able to sustain flanking.

Foot companions are a good example of that: Their main attack is the same or almost the same (after all you can only get that much skilled with a pike) but the difference comes into account when flanked:

;ClassSub-classAtk Def Mrl Lvl
;
;MilitiaPhalanx 0 -2 -2 0
;RegularPhalanx 0 -2 -1 0
;ProfessionalPhalanx 0 -1 0 0

If you look at the table you'll notice that militia and regular phalanxes have both defense and morale penalties, while the professional ones (foot companions and the like) have the defense penalty halved and get no morale hit.

It may not make much difference from the front but 4 morale and defense points can often tip the balance between a quick rout and enough time to rescue the flank.

BTW, yamm gives carthage extra naval units while melquart has better trade bonuses.

Also, civs already get some differences:

CultureAtk Def Mrl
;
;Barbarian+2 +10
;Carthaginian-2 -1 0;Civic
;Eastern+1 0 -2
;Egyptian 0 0 -2;Machimoi
;Greek 0 +1 0
;Roman 0 0 +1
;Saba+1 0 +2

Upkeep:

;barbarian: -10%
;GCS: -10% inf, +10% cav
;roman: -10% inf, +20% cav
;eastern: +10% inf, -10% cav
;steppe: +20% inf, -20% cav
;elephant: +20%
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 19 February 2010 22:44 EDT (US)     141 / 188       
well i was thinking about more unique boni like i mentioned above - costs and unit stats arent everything

on a sidenote - right before i made celts and scythia playable

the celts indeed arent able to build boats - their forces on the british islands are qute useless

scythia made me just laughing - settings vh/vh and their armoured generals and noble lancers easily beat hoplites and thureopoi form the greek city states
Zarax
Legionary
posted 20 February 2010 05:11 EDT (US)     142 / 188       
Well, we are revamping the temple sets in order to make them much more focused on the factions and give different sets of bonuses but that will take a while.

Celts: they are not supposed to be playable and to represent multiple factions.
They don't have a navy exactly because it was meant to avoid british and continental celts reinforcing each other.

Scythia: You're supposed to play the provincial campaign, in the imperial campaign you get larger units and AI bonuses which makes it a cakewalk.

In any case those guys are going to be rebuilt as sarmatians and will be quite a bit different.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 20 February 2010 08:06 EDT (US)     143 / 188       
i know that celts arent playable but they would really need those forces from the british islands because they have enemies everywhere, there would be still 3 "different" factions(western europe, eastern europe, minor asia)

i used the scythians because i wanted to see them played by a human player and they are as insane as i suspected

i played the romans lately and focused on conquering greece and africa and the result was that spain and scythia were the strongest civs in europe which is quite odd to me

however keep up the good work and tell me if you want me to test some more
Zarax
Legionary
posted 20 February 2010 16:23 EDT (US)     144 / 188       
Yes, but gauls and celts are supposed to be "weak" because they are divided, that's what a civil war does.

Anyway I uploaded a new test exe (same link as before) with some of your suggestions (bersekers and gaesatae loose their 2nd hp and carthaginian cavalry got a 5% discount), let me know how gameplay feels.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 20 February 2010 18:32 EDT (US)     145 / 188       
a little bit slower please, im still testing some things in the current version

let's wait for the temple changes before doing more testings because they might have a huge impact

well its ok that gaul and celts are weak but having spain and scythia being the strongest barbarian civs is quite strange because they have never been strong civs either

[This message has been edited by Crusiminator (edited 02-20-2010 @ 06:37 PM).]

CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 20 February 2010 22:18 EDT (US)     146 / 188       
Ideally, Scythia should be impossible to attack, but it shouldn't expand past the steppes for long or at all.

Of course, at this point in time, none of the Barbarian factions should really expand, but raiding is possible to show in this game.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 23 February 2010 09:39 EDT (US)     147 / 188       
i already tested the gauls and gaesatae and they seem fine to me now but now their price have to be adjusted - i think their recruitment costs should be increased, the upkeep costs decreased and only one turn to create

i think they should be placed close to thracian thorakitai in upkeep costs and their price should be increased by 25% of the current one

im expecting similar adjustments for berserkers and will test it soon as well as the carthagian change

another thing i was thinking about is if its really necessary to give other factions some units just after marian reformations because with all civs closer to the romans you will most likely want to take them out quickly but on the other hand you would really need the stronger units like heavy pikemen to deal with the horsemen factions

[This message has been edited by Crusiminator (edited 02-23-2010 @ 09:42 AM).]

Zarax
Legionary
posted 24 February 2010 04:35 EDT (US)     148 / 188       
Yes, there is actually a small mistake in their pricing as they are a lvl3 unit, not lvl4.

Both gaesatae and bersekers have relavitely low recruiment costs because they have minimal equipment and bersekers gets low numbers as well.

Most factions close to the romans already gets extra units post reform, gauls gets heavy swordsmen and heavy spearmen.

BTW, if you open up EDU you will see how the statting system works, the balance rule tables are fairly self explanatory.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 24 February 2010 10:27 EDT (US)     149 / 188       
i checked the tech tree of the military buildings but heavy sword- and pikemen dont appear?do i need any other building too to recruit them?

@caesar: scythia is always able to expande, i used to play on vh/med most of time so i thought that might be the only reason

then i used scythia on vh/vh myself and even tough i went into debt soon i could conquer 3 cities of independent greek and exterminated myself into a plus

now i play on med/med and at 266BC i have 29 settlements as gaul and scythia has 18

the conclusion is that scythia is too strong on all levels and i think the absence of parthia increased the problem - scythia has no enemies and almost every battle they execute gives them another settlement

im already curious how the sarmatians will be instead but i personally think parthia and bactria should exist from the beginning
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 24 February 2010 14:49 EDT (US)     150 / 188       
Scythia and Parthia never fought in older versions of Extended Cultures due to how the map was set up. And in fact, Scythia is much less of a power house than it used to be; I'd be more worried about Spain or Thrace except that they are infantry heavy factions, so easy enough to defeat in battle with a human.

The real problem with Scythia and Parthia is their lack of infantry. If Scythia and Parthia rarely attack a besieged city because they lack the infantry in most of their armies. Against the player that doesn't matter too much, but the AI would have a much better chance against the cavalry if they were attacked.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
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