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CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 09 January 2009 16:21 EDT (US)         
About Extended Cultures:
Extended Cultures (XC) is a RTW modification that aims to bring historical accuracy but also show how different factions could have evolved had history taken a different path, with an eye to fun and challenging gameplay. The mod is similar to vanilla in look and feeling but expands the original by bringing new factions, several reworked units and new buildings. In addition to this, a culture system that makes an unique use of RTW:BI features and a large set of new character traits that extensively helps in role-playing will ensure an unique feeling of diversity for many factions.
You can read more here.

XGM-XC contains 16 playable factions, and four non-playable factions. Fourteen factions are from vanilla (unmodified) RTW; the other six are new.
The new factions are:
Bactria (replaces Britons)
The Ptolemaic Empire (replaces Egypt)
Saba (replaces Dacia)
Roman Rebels (non-playable, replaces Romans (Scipii))
The Independent Greek City States (non-playable, replaces Romans (Brutii))
Eastern Kingdoms (non-playable, replaces Numidia)
And the Celts (non-playable, replaces Romans (Senate))

As is clear from the list, the Romans have been unified.

Extended Cultures will run on RTW 1.5, BI 1.6, or Alex.

Extended Cultures is a fully mod-foldered mod, which means you can install it along with other mod-foldered mods, such as Amazon: Total War. Extended Cultures' installer will automatically search for your copy of RTW; you may need to direct it to where you want however. The installer will install all of the files to the folder "xc" which it will create.

Current version is 4 Gamma.

Changes and Additions include:
Many updates to the map
New Governor units replace recruitable generals
Many changes to traits and ancillaries
Several new garrison scripts
Emergent Bactria and Parthia added to non-Senate campaign
Gaul now has loyalty with Celts as shadow faction

4 Gamma is not save compatible with 4 Beta.

You can install any new version on top of any previous version.

You can download the mod here.

And you can take a look at the read-me here.

This thread is for any questions or comments you may have.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.

[This message has been edited by CaesarVincens (edited 02-01-2010 @ 09:22 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Zarax
Legionary
posted 12 June 2009 19:43 EDT (US)     51 / 188       
Hi I'm Zarax, the team member behind the senate and emergent factions.
If you have any question on this features just reply or PM me.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 12 June 2009 20:13 EDT (US)     52 / 188       
No PM on this forum, Zarax.

Zarax is the man behind the Senate campaign. He also has done all the main work on rebelling Parthia.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 13 June 2009 05:22 EDT (US)     53 / 188       
Oh, crud, new version coming out. Perhaps I should finish/actually start a campaign in anticipation.

you like something both hardcore and whack
2009 RLT & ETWH Craziest Forummer Award!
I had to remove the excessive numbers of smilies I used ß la VampiricCannibal so as not to inconvenience low bandwidth users too much... - Edorix
Zarax
Legionary
posted 14 June 2009 07:20 EDT (US)     54 / 188       
Updated: now both Parthia and Baktria are emergent!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44901&d=1244992794

[This message has been edited by Zarax (edited 06-14-2009 @ 11:34 AM).]

CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 25 June 2009 14:31 EDT (US)     55 / 188       
Version 3.2.4 is now available.

Changes include:
Added Caesar Civil war campaign from DimeBagHo
Updated Traits
Added Rebelling Parthia and Bactria to Senate Campaign

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 03 July 2009 16:37 EDT (US)     56 / 188       
3.2.5 is now available.

It includes a new splash screen from Zarax, a new heavy peltast unit, and a modified battle system.

Lethality values have been reduced by half for all non-cavalry units, so battles will take longer.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.

[This message has been edited by CaesarVincens (edited 07-03-2009 @ 04:39 PM).]

CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 05 July 2009 23:50 EDT (US)     57 / 188       
Following quickly on 3.2.5's heels, 3.2.6 is out.

The main changes are to the Caesar Civil War campaign, but also new skins and cards for Heavy Peltasts by SubRosa are featured.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 23 July 2009 04:46 EDT (US)     58 / 188       
A beta for Extended Cultures 3.3 is now available.
It features many changes to the map as well as other changes.

Download 3.3.0 BETA

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 03 August 2009 01:55 EDT (US)     59 / 188       
3.3.1 is now available. Download and info from the topic post.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 04 August 2009 23:55 EDT (US)     60 / 188       
3.3.2 is now available. Download here.
Changes include:
Several new units from DTW, courtesy of RedFox and Maraxus

And from 3.3.1 (Since I never put that up)
Changes to siege equipment recruitment; onagers can no longer be recruited; only a few faction have access to siege workshop now
Many changes to unit stats
Barbarian factions can now recruit most other Barbarian AoR units
Steppes provincial campaign now works with the Senate campaign
New Bactria provincial campaign for the Senate campaign
Iberian military colony for Carthage replaced by Scythian colony for Pontus

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 05 August 2009 00:18 EDT (US)     61 / 188       
I never know when to update because you always seem to bring at about 7 a week, then take a holiday!

you like something both hardcore and whack
2009 RLT & ETWH Craziest Forummer Award!
I had to remove the excessive numbers of smilies I used ß la VampiricCannibal so as not to inconvenience low bandwidth users too much... - Edorix
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 05 August 2009 00:56 EDT (US)     62 / 188       
I will soon. And don't worry about updating, unless I say otherwise, it shouldn't break your saves. (And you can check save compatibility of the latest version from here.)

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 06 August 2009 02:19 EDT (US)     63 / 188       
For those who wish to use the Senate campaign. Please look at this post first.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 20 August 2009 02:31 EDT (US)     64 / 188       
3.3.3b is now available for your playing pleasure. Details in the OP.

It may seem like not much is being done with Extended Cultures, but nothing is further from the truth. While you play, the team and I are tirelessly working (ok, we get tired sometimes) on the next versions. For example in 3.3.4, new gloss files will make your units shine, not to mention the new units we have in store.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 08 September 2009 11:39 EDT (US)     65 / 188       
3.3.4 is now available. Details in the OP.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 26 September 2009 03:09 EDT (US)     66 / 188       
3.3.5 is now available. It fixes several bugs, including a crash for Bactria. It also adds some new features.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 08 October 2009 22:15 EDT (US)     67 / 188       
The first Extended Cultures 4 beta is here.

Extended Cultures 4 Alpha begins a series of open betas leading up to the full release of Extended Cultures 4.

This series will be marked with Greek letters instead of the usual number system. Additionally, save game compatibility will likely be broken every version or two until the full release. This series of betas will allow the players to get glimpses of what will come with the full Extended Cultures 4 while reporting on balance and general feel.

This version includes a large overhaul of the battle and unit cost systems by Zarax.
Additionally, the first three of a new wonder system are introduced. Carthage can now build their famous Armories to outfit their soldiers, the Ptolemies can carve the Stele of Rosetta to show their commitment to all their citizens, and Macedon can institute a policy of cultural supremacy throughout their empire.

Other behind the scenes changes are taking place as well to make Extended Cultures 4 the best yet.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 09 October 2009 20:53 EDT (US)     68 / 188       
where to report about bugs and place opinions about balance?
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 09 October 2009 21:57 EDT (US)     69 / 188       
Bugs can go here, and balance reports can go in this thread.

Also, feel free to make your own topics if you feel your issue warrants its own thread.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 10 October 2009 17:11 EDT (US)     70 / 188       
in my opinion, also in the previous version there are too many units with missiles

especially the scythian armies are insane, they get horse archers which is already a huge advantage but also they get 70 light horses for the price of 50 from other civs

today i was using thrace and went for a full stack of 6 light cavalry units plus 14 of heavy cavalry against a scythian stack of 14-15 units which is equal due to 70 soldiers per unit - the scythian army beat mine hardcore because the missile rain decreased my forces hard enough to finally destroy them in melee combat

furthermore if you play thrace or also many other civs you wont stand a chance with other stuff against those huge cavalry armies - for the european civs i dont see any chance to beat that with the exception of germans with their excellent long ranged archers(but also it takes very long until you can get them)

but as i said in the beginning there are too many of those missile units

scythians, gaul and celts should get regular light cavalry without a ranged attack

greek civilisations should get weaker peltast units including their auxiliary troops - they are almost as strong as the roman infantry

even though i found the old spartan training a bit too hard with 30 turns but 3 turns is by far too less, i would recommend to place it it somewhere between(maybe 10) because they are almost unbeatable in early game

finally greeks should get regular generals, their infantry generals suck really hard - you cant chase routing units and you also cant escape from the battlefield
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 10 October 2009 17:55 EDT (US)     71 / 188       
I won't answer all your questions, but I will reply to one.
even though i found the old spartan training a bit too hard with 30 turns but 3 turns is by far too less, i would recommend to place it it somewhere between(maybe 10) because they are almost unbeatable in early game
Spartans have been toned down compared to earlier versions. In the next version they will have only 1 hit point, and be recruitable only from a large city and thus unretrainable until then.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 10 October 2009 18:05 EDT (US)     72 / 188       
Balancing is in progress and in the next versions you should see a lot less cavalry around.

Going into individual issues:

- Scythians will be toned down trait wise and won't be able to support lots of units due to the new cavalry costs.

- Historically lots of units (and especially light ones) used a missile weapon to improve their chances of survival.
Missiles might be toned down a bit more (they already have a more realistic range) if needed.

- heavy peltasts are lighter than hastati plus roman strenght early in history came more from their ability to churn out legion after legion rather than inherent strenght.
Once they get principes and triarii most other factions are in trouble as those are extremely cost effective units.

- Spartan Royal Guard will loose the 2nd hitpoint and become a lvl5 unit, meaning that you won't be able to retrain the starting unit for a long time.

- Greek hoplite generals are historical and imho have better survival chances that the cavalry ones. They might get a slight boost in numbers but will definitely stay on foot.

Just let me know if something is unclear
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 10 October 2009 18:31 EDT (US)     73 / 188       
well i know that many historical units used missile weapons but the point im referring to is that some civilisations have no answer for that at least in early game and for sure it shouldnt make light cavalry destroy heavy cavalry

i understand your point about the generals with historical accuracy but all you need is 2 units to do regular hammer and anvil and there is no escape for the greek general

if the game would be realistic to a very high degree there would be so many changes to do that - for example romans fought in phalanxes like greeks for a long time, germans had outstanding cavalry over centuries after the end of carthage but now theirs are as good as the celtic ones which have never been a challenge

at the end of this post i want to mention that i dont have a problem with understanding i just wanted to make comments about the balance feedback
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 11 October 2009 00:17 EDT (US)     74 / 188       
And we appreciate those comments. You'll have to forgive us for being defensive. We've put a lot of time into Extended Cultures; we have a great deal of familiarity with the mod, and very little in it is arbitrary or thoughtless.

I believe every faction except Parthia and Scythia have access to slingers at the second level. These units are one of my favorites and outperform archers many times. A well placed unit of slingers can negate many other units.

As for light cavalry destroying heavy cavalry, it doesn't if you close to melee, or if the light cavalry get caught by infantry, they will be killed much more quickly than heavy cavalry.

Extended Cultures will require greater tactics than vanilla, but the rewards are worth it in greater depth and realism.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 11 October 2009 04:04 EDT (US)     75 / 188       
If you're referring to celtic light cavalry be sure it won't destroy any heavy cavalry unit.
As it's a melee oriented unit in its own right all you need to do is to charge it and no more annoying javelins as it won't run.

We are also working hard on historical accuracy but that of course will take some time especially on the unit side.
Having a 3.5 people team limits what can be done unfortunately.
Part of that has been solved by borrowing a few units from Europa Barbarorum and the rest shall be ready when our outstanding modeler Maraxus works on more beautiful models and skins.

About celtic and germanic cavalry I'd like to point this two links for you:

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_aedui_units.html
http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_sweboz_units.html

We are trying to get as close as we can to that standard but it will of course take some time.
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 11 October 2009 04:19 EDT (US)     76 / 188       
I've recently reinstalled RTW and BI, so I'll be playing this soon Good job again, I should enjoy it

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 11 October 2009 07:25 EDT (US)     77 / 188       
heavy cavalry will destroy the light cavalry in close combat on full numbers but when you chase them and they will reach a hill before you catch them you will loose several units, if that happens 2-3 times you will loose

and as i said its mostly scythia that is a problem, in case of gauls i just think that it will give them too much of an advantage against germans

dont get me wrong - xc is by FAR the best version of this game and i really like it so i appreciate the effort you invested

[This message has been edited by Crusiminator (edited 10-11-2009 @ 07:29 AM).]

Zarax
Legionary
posted 11 October 2009 12:24 EDT (US)     78 / 188       
Well, I cannot exactly see something wrong in heavy cavalry suffering if they try to chase lighter units on difficult ground, I'd call it a smart use of light cavalry.

Gauls may have a slight advantage on germans but also have a civil war on their hands, not to mention that germans can easily recruit celtic cavalry as AOR.
German light cavalry is now cheaper to balance it out.

If you use XC4 alpha with senate this might interest you: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6112001#post6112001

It's a test EDU with all the latest updates.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 16 October 2009 18:38 EDT (US)     79 / 188       
another issues that bother me atm are the strength of triari and the weakness of equites and the still existing weakness of thrace

combined with the roman xp god they become pretty insane quickly, a triari with one silver stripe has 15 attack and 30 defence but the most powerful attribute is their moral - even if you completely surround them with swordmen/axemen it takes forever to kill them

equites on the other hand are quite expensive and pretty weak, i know that romas always had a weak cavalry but equites cost as much as heavy cavalry of gaul(another civ that wasnt famous for cavalry) but they are by far weaker, hence they cant even match with barbarian light cavalry

so my suggestion would be to weaken triari and boost equites therefore

thorakitai are a pretty decent overall unit but not strong enough for their level, if you compare them to gaesatae they fail completely, chosen falxmen are strong warriors but die very fast to any kind of ranged attack

especially against their neighbours namely scythia, macedon or greece this is a huge disadvantage, i dont see any chance to beat high tech scythian armies with noble lancers/cataphracts with 3 xp points or hellenic armies that include several heavy peltast auxiliaries

so far i have widely tested greece,macedon,thrace,germania and gaul
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 16 October 2009 22:28 EDT (US)     80 / 188       
Are you playing on the regular campaign or the senate campaign. For on the senate campaign, there has been a massive rebalancing of costs that help to balance out units from different factions. Triarii are much more expensive with the new costs.

As you noted, Roman cavalry was certainly not noted for its strength, however, Gallic cavalry wasn't in the same way. They weren't the most famous of cavalry, but they were better than most.

As to Thrace, I'm not sure they are that weak. I have seen them grow to massive size when under AI control. As the player, you will probably have more trouble, but that is true of every faction.

Please keep in mind that while we lead up to the full release of Extended Cultures, we are in the process of balancing the entire engine.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 18 October 2009 02:04 EDT (US)     81 / 188       
The main factor here is that Scythia is slightly unbalancing things.
Under the new system they have a slightly harder time in recruiting heavy units but further improvement is expected when the new release of ethnic traits will get in.

Roman equites are slightly better under the new system, however still weaker than their gallic counterparts.
As in history they are now a well equipped but small units with unspectacular training.

They will get a slightly easier life in the future if our modeler will have some free time.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 31 October 2009 17:27 EDT (US)     82 / 188       
after some more testings i came to the conclusion that way too much units have high morale values - even when you completely surround your enemy their morale just wont break

for example i had 2 spartan royal guards and 2 athenian hoplite batts surrounding one group of triari and i had to kill them until only about 10 were left

especially if you also go for vh on campaign you will have so many battles that last forever

only thing i havent seen is how post-marian units work but if already triari almost never rout i wonder how the roman elite forces should be made
Zarax
Legionary
posted 31 October 2009 21:09 EDT (US)     83 / 188       
More testing data would be great, honestly I get very little feedback and it would be nice to have some more battle reports.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 31 October 2009 22:07 EDT (US)     84 / 188       
another thing i forgot to mention before

50 prodromoi with one xp and one upgrade against 80-90 velites with 2 xp points and also one upgrade - the velites make my cavalry rout

i like the fact that cavalry doesnt beat everything now but they should still beat all kind of archers and peltasts in this game

i also think torakitai should use swords in close combat, at this stage greeks should have enough strong anticavalry

another thing is about dealing with the scythians; despite the fact that you said they will be nerfed a bit i see a problem for many factions - the lack of long range archers - against scythians with their noble cavalry archers this is a real problem - with civs like gauls or thrace all you can do is go pure cavalry and hope the best which is quite...well...unsatisfying
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 31 October 2009 22:58 EDT (US)     85 / 188       
I'm sure you are, but just to check, you are testing this on medium battle difficulty, correct?

Greek cavalry was historically weak, and prodromoi aren't heavy cavalry so they can't hold up in sustained combat normally. Repeatedly charging should break any basic skirmish or ranged unit. Macedon, the indie Greeks, and the Seleucids each get a sword and javelin unit. At the same level as Thorakitai. The lack of a heavy sword unit is something one must work around as the Greek Cities. The limits of the game engine mean a unit can only have two weapons at most, while historically, many units would have three, or else could use their javelins as ad hoc spears.

If I haven't mentioned it already, the Scythians are going to be greatly overhauled as they are changed to the Sarmatians. While they will still be a steppe, horse-archer faction, many things will be different in one way or another. Also, with the recent changes to the unit pricing, Scythia's mainly horse roster will much more expensive. I understand how frustrating it is to fight Scythia, however, historically, they were hard to beat. Unfortunately, the game engine doesn't represent their tactics of raiding rather than conquering well, nor their disunity.

Have faith, we are working to bring you ever better versions of Extended Cultures. And while we may not make the changes you wish, we do listen to what you say.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Zarax
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 05:36 EDT (US)     86 / 188       
Err, this is what I get on M/M:


Under normal conditions velites should loose to prodromoi.
XP could of course influence the result but I suspect you've been unlucky in this particular case.

EDIT: Even with the bonuses involved the result doesn't seem to be different:



About swordsmen, your iphicratean hoplites should be quite able to double up as assault infantry, don't be fooled by their phalanx formation as they are double purpose troops.

Against Scythia the barbarians should use what they historically did: forests.
Lure their cavalry into the woods and you should be able to inflict them some serious damage.
Other than that, slingers backed up by spearmen should be your best bet.

[This message has been edited by Zarax (edited 11-01-2009 @ 05:46 AM).]

Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 09:54 EDT (US)     87 / 188       
the point about thorakitai is not the lack of swordmen but its the greek strength against cavalry since hoplites already kill cavalry quite effective and heavy phalanxes arent bad either

i exclusively play on vh for battles and in my current greek i even went for vh instead of h for campaign as well

the scythian problems could be solved with ambushing in forests in some cases but if you are going to conquer their homelands there are almost no forests

the strength of the scythians is imo that they get xp from shrines, have more units for the same price(compared to gaul light cavalry) and their ability to throw javelins

i think cavalry archers early are enough so maybe their light cavalry should be stronger in melee but loosing their javelins
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 11:49 EDT (US)     88 / 188       
First, if we haven't mentioned it before and you don't already know. On harder battle difficulties, the AI troops get bonus attack and morale, +7. So, they will handily beat your (equal level) troops one-on-one without the use of tactics.

For Thorakitai, I'm not sure what you want. You say they would be better as swordsmen because the Greeks already have a lot of spear troops, not because they lack swordsmen. Do you mean that Thorakitai are redundant? For they are much heavier than Thureophoroi, but quicker and more agile than hoplites or phalanx units.

As I said before, we are revamping Scythia. We will most certainly consider what sort of units they should get at the early levels.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 12:40 EDT (US)     89 / 188       
i know about morale but compared to vanilla rtw its insane that even after several hammer&anvil charges units like triari just wont rout until they lost about 90%

the point about thorakitai is that against the greeks cavalry is almost pointless because all their units are strong against cavalry including non-hoplite units

from my pov thorakitai are comparable to princeps or hypaspists from their design but they dont really have any weakness when using spears

i hope this was better to point out what im talking about
Zarax
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 13:29 EDT (US)     90 / 188       
The point of thorakitai is to have a flexible infantry similar to legionaries in style (although not quite as effective against heavy infantry), acting as flank guards more than line troops.

EDIT: Thorakitai aren't good infantry killers, don't base your opininon on stats alone.
Principes will give them a run for their money and hypaspists will defeat them.

Ideally early greek armies would have their center composed by hoplites, thureophoroi or thorakitai on the flanks and cavalry to chase away enemy skirmishers.

Morale on M/M seems fine to me, triarii do take a while before routing but of course they were grizzled veterans so it's something you'd expect.
I'd rather suggest attacking them with slingers or skirmishers from distance rather than rely on melee, imho it's far more cost effective, especially considering that roman cavalry is easily stopped.

[This message has been edited by Zarax (edited 11-01-2009 @ 01:32 PM).]

Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 15:56 EDT (US)     91 / 188       
i didnt play on m/m - it was vh/vh
Zarax
Legionary
posted 01 November 2009 21:25 EDT (US)     92 / 188       
Well Crusiminator, the game has to be balanced for M/M as it's not focused on a single faction.

As AI gets 7 morale and attack bonus on VH isn't it a bit unfair to complain about getting unrealistic results?

I don't want to be confrontational but the XC battle system is the result of long hours of balancing research.
It's not 100% perfect of course and I'm always willing to follow feedback for fine tuning (since the release you're playing I redid charge bonus and phalanxes), but if you choose to have AI cheating you cannot reasonably expect us to act on info based on skewed scenarios.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 02 November 2009 02:18 EDT (US)     93 / 188       
Basically, Zarax wants you to try out some custom battles on medium difficulty and report what you think.

Obviously, you can play at whatever difficulty you like - I myself tend to go for h/h for a mix of challenge and enjoyment- but just remember that on harder difficulties the AI should beat you more often.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 02 November 2009 04:29 EDT (US)     94 / 188       
well i know that many historical units used missile weapons but the point im referring to is that some civilisations have no answer for that at least in early game
That is historically accurate as well as true. One of several reasons the Huns, and later the Mongols were so unstoppable was because they used light horse-archer units almost exclusively- and the rest of the western world had no answer to them. The real Scythians used them as well, though they were too underpopulated to have ambitions of expanse and conquest for much of their existence. When brought to battle, melee armies often had a tough time against the Scythians for a long, long time- unless they were attacking something the Scythians had to defend, and thus brought them to melee.
Ruled by small numbers of closely-allied Úlites, Scythians had a reputation for their archers, and many gained employment as mercenaries.

...

Scythian women dressed in much the same fashion as men. A Pazyryk burial found in the 1990s contained the skeletons of a man and a woman, each with weapons, arrowheads, and an axe.

...

The Sacae, or Scyths, were clad in trousers, and had on their heads tall stiff caps rising to a point. They bore the bow of their country and the dagger; besides which they carried the battle-axe, or sagaris. They were in truth Amyrgian (Western) Scythians, but the Persians called them Sacae, since that is the name which they gave to all Scythians.
That's what makes this so challenging- coming up with tactics to do what your units themselves cannot- trap and destroy a foe who is far more mobile, numerous, and has a longer range. The Scythians themselves, when faced with a missile-heavy and armored foe like the Persians who could have destroyed them in battle, preferred other tactics like this one:
In 512 BC, when king Darius the Great of Persia attacked the Scythians, he allegedly penetrated into their land after crossing the Danube. Herodotus relates that the nomad Scythians succeeded in frustrating the designs of the Persian army by letting it march through the entire country without an engagement.
So, I am sorry that you find that some civilizations have no answer for massed horse-archers or other light units, but such is history. I, for one, think it challenging to discover new tactics and ways to perform what others call impossible.

Sometimes the only answer is attrition. That works, too- bleed them out, smother them with manpower. Have two or even three armies working together to trap the horse-archers between them. Avoid armies in the field and attack their cities from the sea. Use artillery. Or, in the early game when you have no artillery- avoid the pesky bastards! Strategy is as much knowing when to fight as well as where and with what.
Crusiminator
Legionary
posted 02 November 2009 10:33 EDT (US)     95 / 188       
dont get me wrong, its not that i have no answer for the scythians - im talking about the game balance

if you say scythians dominated because of their cav archers its ok but as soon as you use the "domination" the question is not about game balance anymore - at least in my opinion

if you say civ x or y dominated in history then ok, some civs are challenging and others are less but balance would mean all civs are equally strong in combination of economy/army/empire starting size

i didnt know that the game is based on m/m gameplay so i guess you should forget my feedbacks because they are all based on vh in battles and h or vh in campaign
Zarax
Legionary
posted 02 November 2009 18:25 EDT (US)     96 / 188       
Well, we are going to change scythians to sarmatians and most likely weaken them a bit in the process.

Balancing reports must be done on M difficulty for the simple rason that anything else gives bonuses either to the player or AI, making them unrealiable.
Mind that there are a few mods balanced for VH (SPQR comes to mind) but those are meant to be played by one and only one faction.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 11 November 2009 14:40 EDT (US)     97 / 188       
Extended Cultures 4 Beta is now available for download.

It includes:
More revisions to unit balance
New cost system for all units
Campaign balancing to reflect this
Ethnic Traits 3, traits and Ancillaries greatly overhauled
Egyptian recruitment changed to Hellenic and non-Hellenic areas
Fixed a bug with settlement view
Other bug fixes

It is not save compatible with 4 Alpha.

Download or view the readme from here.

Also, a new page about Ethnic Traits can be viewed here.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.

[This message has been edited by CaesarVincens (edited 11-11-2009 @ 04:24 PM).]

CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 11 November 2009 21:08 EDT (US)     98 / 188       
There is a patch that fixes the Senate campaign if you use BI. You can download it from the site.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 24 November 2009 13:02 EDT (US)     99 / 188       
Extended Cultures 4 Beta v3 is now available.
It fixes the provincial campaigns and updates traits.
Because it updates traits, it is not save compatible with previous versions.
Download link in the OP.

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
CaesarVincens
Legionary
posted 25 December 2009 12:14 EDT (US)     100 / 188       
Merry Christmas to all our fans, past, present, and future!

Veni, Vidi, well... you know.

Extended Cultures, A modification of RTW.

Si hoc legere posses, Latinam linguam scis.
ɪf ju kŠn ɹid ­ɪs, ju noʊ liŋgwɪstɪks.
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