Holy Roman Party XVII: Nanu Nanu - Total War Heaven Forum

Topic Subject: Holy Roman Party XVII: Nanu Nanu

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Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)

posted 17 May 2013 00:12 EDT (US)

The Man with the Laughs

Gooooooooood-byyyyyyye Vietnaaaaam! That's right, I'm history... I'm outta here. I got the lucky ticket home, baby. Rollin, rollin, rollin'... keep them wagons rollin', rawhide! Yeah, that's right... the final Adrian Cronauer broadcast... and this one is brought to you by our friends at the Pentagon. Remember the people who brought you Korea? That's right, the U.S. Army. If it's being done correctly, here or abroad, it's probably not being done by the Army.

In honor of Robin Williams, I've decided to forsake the rules and simple post a lot of what made him special to us: his humor and ability to make us laugh!!

Genie: [turns into a cheerleader] Rick 'em, rack 'em, rock 'em, rake! Stick that sword into that snake!
Jafar: You stay out of this!
Genie: [Weakly] Jafar, Jafar, he's our man; if he can't do it, great!

When Christopher Reeve was in the hospital after his accident, Robin came to visit him. Reeve said this about that surprise visit:

Then, at an especially bleak moment, the door flew open and in hurried a squat fellow with a blue scrub hat and a yellow surgical gown and glasses, speaking in a Russian accent. He announced that he was my proctologist, and that he had to examine me immediately...it was Robin Williams...for the first time since the accident, I laughed. My old friend had helped me know that somehow I was going to be okay.

When Stephan Spielberg was filming "Schindler's List", Robin would call him to cheer him up. I think I only called him once, maybe twice. I called him when I was representing People for the Valdheimers Association. A society devoted to helping raise money to help older Germans who had forgotten everything before 1945. I remember him laughing and going 'thank you.'"

WARNING: Language

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Winners of the ICC Championship:
100: Awesome Eagle
476: Pitt
500: Hannibal the Conqueror
793: EnemyofJupitor
1066: EnemyofJupitor
1389: Awesome Eagle
1453: Awesome Eagle
1500: Punic Hebil
1789: Jax
1914: EnemyofJupitor
2000: Jetkill Fastmurder
2500:

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 12-13-2014 @ 02:35 PM).]

Author

Replies:

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 03 July 2014 08:48 EDT (US) 1726 / 2504

I think here in the Middle East things aren't too different from elsewhere. However its worthy to note that most bright students who go have an aptitude for Science end up immigrating to Europe or the US for their higher studies, and we mostly end up with the idiots. Most, if not all, engineers, doctors and other people with similar science-based jobs, are outsourced individuals. I recall the last time I had to do an ear check-up at a specialist facility of sorts, only the receptionist was Arab. The doctor who handled my case was Russian, she was probably the only Russian there, and there was a mix of other people, none of whom were Arab. I find it slightly comforting to be in the care of highly-trained foreign doctors who probably spent a lifetime of education and training rather than someone locally trained. So much for oil, if we can't have a self-sustainable healthcare industry.

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)

posted 03 July 2014 12:20 EDT (US) 1727 / 2504

That sounds a lot like the Third World- anyone with brains gets out of there while they can and never goes back. It sucks for those trapped at home.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

Edorix
High King of Britain

posted 03 July 2014 18:09 EDT (US) 1728 / 2504

It's not just the Third World - one need look no farther afield than the Eastern member-states of the European Union. Poland and the Baltic States for example are headed for long-term stagflation thanks to this "brain drain" so wonderfully facilitated by freedom of movement...

General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius

posted 03 July 2014 21:09 EDT (US) 1729 / 2504

thanks to this "brain drain" so wonderfully facilitated by freedom of movement...

Sounds like you're against freedom of movement?

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
"Judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
"I like my enemies like James Bond likes his martinis- shaken, not stirred."
My first book, The King's Own

Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)

posted 04 July 2014 01:23 EDT (US) 1730 / 2504

What about freedom of movement as a part of globalization?

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda

Alex_the_Bold
Legionary

posted 04 July 2014 02:15 EDT (US) 1731 / 2504

The same can be said for Greece, mostly due to the economic crisis and the massive youth unemployment... Most people with degrees prefer leaving Greece in order to study or work in other EU countries. I recall that in the past 4 years approximately 30,000 Greeks with university diplomas have migrated abroad...

Invincibility lies in defence, while the possibility of victory in the attack -Sun Tzu
Akouson me, pataxon de (hit me, but first listen to me)-Themistocles to Euribiadis prior to the battle of Salamis.

[This message has been edited by Alex_the_Bold (edited 07-04-2014 @ 02:15 AM).]

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 04 July 2014 03:33 EDT (US) 1732 / 2504

The issue with globalisation is that it has always priveleged one "world's" corporations over another. So this leaves many impoverished nations with a dependence on a single supplier, sometimes via coercion like what happened in Iraq thanks to Bremer's Order 81. Not to mention what is also happening in India, as many farmers in the north committed suicide over the years, after having bought Monsanto's 'magic seeds' which have proven to be a massive failure and have drowned farming families in debt.

Globalisation often brings positive results for advanced or developed economies, while the pains of the same is endured by the lesser countries. I know for a fact that without a constant stream of goods from Europe the country where I'm living in won't last for a day even with the supply it already has. This impedes most if not all nations' development and stops them from achieving a self-sustainable economy.

However, globalisation alone is not the only thing to blame. There's also the lack of deliberation on the part of these countries to enhance their economy and reduce corporate influence over themselves. So many factors to be taken into account here, and I couldn't bother listing them all lol

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

Edorix
High King of Britain

posted 04 July 2014 17:30 EDT (US) 1733 / 2504

Sounds like you're against freedom of movement?

I wouldn't put it that way. I don't have much confidence in the phrase "freedom of movement" because it makes it sound like the ability to go wherever you please is a fundamental human right, and makes it sound like restricting it is tantamount to incarceration or encatenation - the inability to "move". I suggest this is political, at heart a deliberate way of making the debate more emotive and visceral, and all told is an unhelpful conflation for truly impartial assessment of a situation. We need to be discussing freedom of migration, and who it is supposed to benefit: what combination of a) the migrant b) the receiving country and c) the country left behind?

We might also discuss whether the ability to change country is a "right" - this seems to me an interesting and complex issue; if a country, for example, is gripped by civil war, civilian massacre, resource shortage, one must wish they could say such people do have a right to change country - that is reasonably part of their "right" to preserve their own lives. The difficulty then is: whose responsibility is it to foot the bill for that right? The answer can be:

no one's, but hopefully there should be countries with sufficient land and resources to accommodate them and a sufficiently charitable spirit to desire to. But this isn't the case; the refugees in this case are neglected.

everyone's a): the perpetrators of violence in the original country are responsible, so everyone else should act as a community to restore peace in the original country so the need to leave is removed. The problems here of course are 1) lack of international democratic will to help and 2) determining goodies and baddies and the practicalities of imposing stability by force.

everyone's b): everyone should help out with handouts and proportionally sharing the refugee burden.

At present I suggest we live in the grey area between these ideas. It is everyone's responsibility, but they're excused if they do not have a democratic mandate to care.

I consider that freedom of migration in the EU risks doing much harm to the durability and resilience of several of the poorer ex-communist countries added to the EU in 2004 and 2007 in particular. The solution must be to move much faster towards bringing those countries up to the same level of prosperity as the earlier member-states (ignoring the recent "economic downturn" for the purposes of illustration). It remains to be seen whether this task is possible.

What about freedom of movement as a part of globalization?

People have always travelled; those who could afford it anyway... what do you mean?

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 07-04-2014 @ 05:45 PM).]

Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)

posted 04 July 2014 18:45 EDT (US) 1734 / 2504

People have always traveled; those who could afford it anyway... what do you mean?

Yes, but never before have the lower socio-economic classes had such an opportunity to travel as far or as widely before. People have always traveled yes, but without the reasonable security we have today. And as you well know, most peasants throughout the world not in this modern age have lived and died in sight of their farm or hovel. Today, i could go live in England or America and continue my degree and then return and finish my degree, and then go to work in any university around the world that would have me. So my basic point is due to globalization, freedom of movement has been greatly increased and extended, and it is in that context that i asked what your thoughts were on this extended view of freedom of movement.But you have mostly already answered this.

Did that make sense?

Edorix
High King of Britain

posted 05 July 2014 07:53 EDT (US) 1735 / 2504

In that sense globalisation is perhaps essentially a by-product of a prolonged period of low cost mechanised transport, and the very long-distance communication and administration networks originally necessitated by the running of global empires...

On that (separate) topic I am in two minds. "Globalisation" is again a slightly tricky term. If it refers to a process by which every part of of the globe becomes more similar to every other part of the globe, then on the whole I would be inclined to reject it. Although of course again there are pros and cons - is it good if Western absolute moral values are imposed on and/or adopted by everyone? If you subscribe to them, presumably yes. On the other hand, not all the trappings of modern Western civilisation are positive - business amorality, fossil fuel-reliance, aspects of poor health such as a high-sugar diet and sedentary lifestyle causing among other things obesity, diabetes and cardio-circulatory problems. This is not to mention more subjective and potentially controversial issues such as the extinction or dilution of traditional cultures and/or languages at the gain of a small group of closely similar Westernised supercultures and languages.

edit: Please forgive my lecturing style, this is much more a process of trying to articulate my own ideas than claiming they are the only valid ones.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 07-05-2014 @ 07:55 AM).]

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 05 July 2014 10:54 EDT (US) 1736 / 2504

Did that make sense?

No.

Actually yeah.

I think I slightly agree with some of what Edorix said, the other part was incomprehensible to me cause my head's feeling a bit fuzzy.

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius

posted 07 July 2014 14:58 EDT (US) 1737 / 2504

While:

Quoted from Wikipedia:
Globalization is the process of international integration arising from the interchange of world views, products, ideas, and other aspects of culture.

In my mind, Globalization is more about trade between nations, in goods, services, money, and people. That is, trade of goods, foreign direct investment and finance, and immigration. Of those four factors, immigration is really the only one with serious limitations.

Furthermore, an interesting side affect of globalization is it's more commonly defined (i.e. cultural integration/regularization) is that niches are much more likely to be created and filled; for instance, as I recall, Sweden has a booming business in heavy metal bands. While there isn't enough of a market in Sweden for heavy metal music, there is in the global market, which allows Sweden to continue exporting heavy metal music, which is a part of its culture that it's able to preserve due to globalization.

[This message has been edited by General Sajaru (edited 07-07-2014 @ 02:58 PM).]

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 07 July 2014 16:54 EDT (US) 1738 / 2504

Although that's an interesting case, we shouldn't forget that there are numerous other cases where globalization, taken in the same cultural and social context, has helped some cultures dominate others in their own homelands. So globalisation does not come without its demerits. While it does help some countries in preserving their culture, it also undermines other cultures as well.

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader

posted 08 July 2014 03:38 EDT (US) 1739 / 2504

Eddie:
How much is

business amorality

a Western 'thing'?

There's a lot of fuss quite often about Western companies coughing up for 'facilitation payments' in order to get governmental contracts - I suspect a reasonable proportion might be related to effective blackmail from the recipients rather than purely bribery. There's a general factory-owner amorality that places profit above the lives of the children working the looms, but again is that really culture specific?

On a different line - if we had some superb robots that could fulfil almost every need, but resources (eg food, water, space) were still sort of finite, how would it be fair to allocate them? If resources weren't finite and what ever we wanted we could get, how would we challenge people / not destroy civilisation through boredom/laziness?

Virescit vulnere virtus
Sicily HotseatA campaign (finished)
AI compilation mod

General Sajaru
Tribunus Laticlavius

posted 08 July 2014 12:47 EDT (US) 1740 / 2504

There's a lot of fuss quite often about Western companies coughing up for 'facilitation payments' in order to get governmental contracts

Bribery and corruption certainly aren't solely the province of the Western world; in fact, the West is in many ways less corrupt than other parts of the world. And Western companies are much more bound by labor laws and regulations that enforce some sense of morality on them, whereas companies in other parts of the world aren't bound by such rules.

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 08 July 2014 13:41 EDT (US) 1741 / 2504

However it is only normal for more reprimanding words to be directed to the West, given the fact that the very foundation of the West's political identity is that of democracy and such. Under such circumstances it would be assumed that bribery would not be conducted, especially not on such a large scale.

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

Edorix
High King of Britain

posted 09 July 2014 18:39 EDT (US) 1742 / 2504

How much is
business amorality
a Western 'thing'?

I'm kind of thinking of excessively liberal (i.e. insufficiently regulated) capitalism, which I presume to be a Western movement/invention. Speaking as an economic Liberal. On the other hand, profit-seeking at the cost of fcuk-all is hardly a new or culturally-specific thing, you're right.

On a different line - if we had some superb robots that could fulfil almost every need, but resources (eg food, water, space) were still sort of finite, how would it be fair to allocate them?

If I follow you right, and you're thinking of the disproportionate share of the world's capital and resources controlled by the West relative to its total population, I would say this sort of thinking is tantamount to suicide for Westerners, or at least life as we know it - "civilisation"? If we each ("amorally") place our own lives and those of our immediate acquaintances above those of strangers far away, should we all thank the gods for inequality?

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 07-09-2014 @ 06:49 PM).]

SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader

posted 10 July 2014 15:27 EDT (US) 1743 / 2504

I wasn't being that subtle - back in the day, everyone had to work quite a lot for very little wealth (other than those wielding military or religious power) and people got what they earned; now there's lots of wealth (in the west at least) and less work to get it, with welfare states trying to even things out. If we got to the stage where there's very limited genuine work (eg clever people thinking, maybe clinical trial work, brain donation to a hive mind/matrix) then what will the masses do?

Large numbers of people with no objectives or purpose to their life, idle thumbs if you like, might not be a great result.

Would artificial restriction of resources / oppression be a good thing at that point?

General, that's sort of what I was getting at.

Virescit vulnere virtus
Sicily HotseatA campaign (finished)
AI compilation mod

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 11 July 2014 03:47 EDT (US) 1744 / 2504

Well, things are really heating up in Gaza atm, rockets are being launched from Lebanon now.

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

Jax
HG Monument
(id: Jax Omen)

posted 11 July 2014 04:26 EDT (US) 1745 / 2504

Large numbers of people with no objectives or purpose to their life, idle thumbs if you like, might not be a great result.

It depends if the idle thumbs who cannot find work (as there is no work) are being kept afloat just above the breadline, or if the idle thumbs are receiving a proper living wage. There isn't a huge disparity between the two, and honestly if it meant I didn't have to work I'd go back to �12k/year University living and travel in a heartbeat.

Obviously even in the latter scenario realistically the country would fall apart if 99% of jobs were automated but whatever. I don't think "people need work" is strictly true, though - I know I don't.

house won this

Jetkill Fastmurder
Legionary
(id: Mayank Sharma)

posted 11 July 2014 11:25 EDT (US) 1746 / 2504

What do you think about social darwinism? I believe that if someone is able to do a job and isn't doing one, he shouldn't be 'kept afloat'. Just extend government employment schemes to cover more technical and slightly higher paying jobs and don't offer them large doles of money and housing.

Hannibal the Conqueror
Legionary
(id: HannibalBarcaXXI)

posted 11 July 2014 15:00 EDT (US) 1747 / 2504

I think there are far too many problems and variables to calculate before simple solutions such as these may be considered.

"I long for Darkness."
- Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited.

"We are a species that ravages, plunders, kills, destroys, rapes and enslaves in the name of progress."

Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)

posted 11 July 2014 17:53 EDT (US) 1748 / 2504

What do you think about social darwinism? I believe that if someone is able to do a job and isn't doing one, he shouldn't be 'kept afloat'. Just extend government employment schemes to cover more technical and slightly higher paying jobs and don't offer them large doles of money and housing.

Well i would tow a middle line. Whilst believing that everyone should have a 'freedom from want', dole bludgers(What Aussies call them) take that and stuff the spirit behind the dole. I think that if you are a male or female, on the dole but able to do work, i believe that they should work for their money from the government by doing say, 3 days a week labour or work. It doesnt have to be skilled jobs, but even just cleaning jobs or something- like cleaning trash or cleaning the sidewalk or something, or even working on infrastructure projects like the good old days. But even this little amount of work would be enough of a justification to keep the system around i believe.

Edorix
High King of Britain

posted 11 July 2014 18:50 EDT (US) 1749 / 2504

I think there are far too many problems and variables to calculate before simple solutions such as these may be considered.

I fancy this is probably a safe and accurate answer to any question over which there is any significant controversy (and probably several where there isn't).

the good old days

wat

Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)

posted 12 July 2014 02:38 EDT (US) 1750 / 2504

By good old days, I am refering to the efforts of several governments when they tried to recover from the depths of the Great Depression. In the US for example, millions of unemployed purple where employed by the government agencies in order to expand infrastructure and beautify the country. In Australia as well, a similar but much smaller initve was in effect. My old uncle also told me of a initve that was active before the passing of Gough Whitlams social security laws that are (as far as I can remember) the foundation of the dole in Australia.

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