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Dark Ages: Roman Revival
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Topic Subject:Dark Ages: Roman Revival Map - General Discussion
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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 13 January 2011 10:14 EDT (US)         
Prototype (v0.1)


Proposed revision v0.11

1-Romano-British (Roman, Christian)
2-Franks (Barbarian, Christian)
3-Visigoths (Germanic, Arian)
4-Saxons (Barbarian, Christian)
5-Alemanni (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
6-Burgundians (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
7-Western Roman Empire (Roman, Christian)
8-Ostrogoths (Germanic, Arian)
9-Illyrians (Barbarian, Christian)
10-Venedae (Barbarian, Arian)
11-Gepidae (Barbarian, Hunnic Pantheon)
12-Huns (Hunnic, Hunnic Pantheon)
13-Alans (Barbarian, Arian)
14-Sassanids (Eastern, Zoroastrian)
15-Vandals (Barbarian, Christian)
16-Berbers (Berber, Berber Pantheon)
17-Norsemen (Germanic, Germanic Pantheon)
18-Eastern Roman Empire (Roman, Christian)

2 Emergent Factions:
19-Copts (Eastern, Christian)
20-Caliphate (Eastern, Muslim)

Current prototype (v2.0) :

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 10-07-2012 @ 11:04 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 06 February 2011 07:38 EDT (US)     101 / 243       
By the way, GKA mentioned a while back that I suggested we could use the campaign map from M2TW. We could indeed, but having re-read the terms of use, I am obliged to point out this is in fact illegal. So that's a no-go.

We could use the MM map... but actually, on the face of it, do we need or want to? I think not. Let's stick with the vanilla template.

Just in case anyone was still wondering about this.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

(dis ma house)
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 06 February 2011 08:00 EDT (US)     102 / 243       
MM could work, but we'd cut it down, I think. Just for a bit more of Persia/Scandinavia. But it's hardly necessary; we have a nice balance of factions with this map. Stick with our one; we can always make some additions of our own!

@GKA - I didn't actually change the shape of that one. :P It's possible that with my recolouring the border shifted a tad, but it was intended to remain the same.

For me, the Huns were meant to have a difficult start. Maeotis ought to fall to them pretty quick anyway, no?

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 February 2011 09:06 EDT (US)     103 / 243       
The Sassanid Empire is much bigger than our map allows, so a rethink on that area is worth undertaking.

I just noticed that Terikel has given both Sicilian provinces to the OGs. Tsk tsk.
RE: Frankish Swabia

Again, I see your point, but instead of handing it straight to them, perhaps we could put a field army in Austrasia ready to march on Strasburg/Whatever-the-city-is? It did fall in 502. My point is, we could pave the way for a powerhouse-in-making, as an alternative to a powerhouse made and ready. Sounds good?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 06 February 2011 09:09 EDT (US)     104 / 243       
3 provinces isn't a powerhouse. But yes, that is another good idea, and one that could work well. We must wait until playtesting!

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 06 February 2011 13:20 EDT (US)     105 / 243       
Frank powerhouse: I agree with the frankish powerhouse-in-the-making settlements "thing"

Steppe emptiness: I think that there weren't many people in the huge expanse of the russian steppes (i guess we should just let it be rebels & let them be a alternative "expansion point" for the huns or alans etc.)
If you wanted/ had that another faction then there I guess the AI bosporus (if it was an actual playable faction rather than major rebel faction) then it would probably be like the roxolani (an annoying faction who expands but does little damage/ influence to the game unless your nearby) & fill the steppes but not exactly be a huge power. (unless if you play as them....)

Gepid situation: If you really wanted the Gepid peoples but not as a faction why not let some be mercenaries & incorporate them into some of the other factions?

Sassanid situation: Possibly with the sassanids rather than giving them more settlements maybe a better economy & some more trade representing the extra money coming in from the rest of their empire? sound ok?

[This message has been edited by Alpha211 (edited 02-07-2011 @ 12:06 PM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 February 2011 21:06 EDT (US)     106 / 243       
From what I've read on wiki, the Sassanid Empire appeared to have been a very well-administered and well-organized eastern power, with a massive trading network connecting the east and the west (Rome, Europe and China, India, etc), and an extensive mining and metal-working operation, leading to its reputation as being the "Armory of Europe".

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 February 2011 07:22 EDT (US)     107 / 243       
I want to keep the Gepids for two reasons. One, they knocked the Huns out of the European Power Play in 454. That was a monumental feat, and ought to be recognized.

Second, they fell a hundred years later to the Lombards, who will be a faction in our game (replacing the 'Illyrians' where I had originally put them). Their downfall in battle led to the Lombards expanding, which in turn led to them fighting the Ostrogoths. So if it happened in history, it can happen in the game. Or, what if the Gepids beat the Lombards? A new power arises. Either way, a challenge for the Gepid player. The Gepidae were also far from 'jsut another steppe faction'- they were footborne swordsmen with shields, not fleet horse-archers roaming prairies and open grass.

So the Gepids stay- as a sideshow, a challenge, or a potential history-changer. Much like the Alemanni we are also leaving in.

The Suevi do not deserve their own faction. Sorry. They would have a (ho-hum not another one, yes, another) Germanic roster, and only one feasible target- the Visigoths. The Visigoths will have to be diluted after conquering (most of) Spain, much like they were in real life. This led to their defeat at the hands of the Franks, and later at the hands of the Moors. So why discount the Suevi and not the Gepidae? Well, the Gepids can advance in several directions at several different factions; the Suevic kingdom is locked into mortal combat with just one. It can be made to be challenging by giving them few warriors and only one province, but still, it is the same old routine no matter which way you play it and that will get old real fast- form an army, march on the Visigoths, hope to defeat them, then do. Once Spain is unified and the Visigoths extinct, you have the Franks to deal with. It will be the same every time.

The West was crowded with little kingdoms in 500. Not every one of them will deserve a faction. Some we will probably ignore. Others we will have to change a bit. And some will be butted up against another, more powerful kingdom and will probably quickly fall to it. So was it, so shall it be.

I think we should conce4ntrate on getting the provinces right, then assigning the provinces to a faction. Because when we see how many provinces a faction has, we will probably redraw the provinces to enhance gameplay. So I think that comes first.

Also, remember that provinces can be rich or poor. We can give a strong nation two rich provinces and a weak nation five poor ones. Or vice versa. Or a combination of the two. Do not get caught up in numbers too much. And remember, one city per province- which means some important cities are going to have to be ignored in favor of others.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 February 2011 09:35 EDT (US)     108 / 243       
Right, I had half an essay written as a reply, but my laptop refused to wake up and I lost it. So several very quick points.

1) As I have repeated many a time, the Lombardi do not belong in Illyria. They only crossed the Danube into Pannonia in the 540s, and did so to defeat the Gepids. Which they did very quickly.

2) With the Gepids, the map is crowded. The Suevi and Gepids seem to be very similar (yet another infantry faction) and the Suevi will balance out the map. Otherwise the Visigoths can turtle as much as they like without problems, irrespective of how poor we make the provinces. And a Visigoth campaign is likely to be quite dull if they have no early challenger. It won't be hard to hole up in Spain and Tolosa against the Franks. The Suevi balance the map out. The Gepids don't balance anything, we already have the Sklaveni, Lombards, Ostrogoths and ERE at each others throats, while the Gepids are likely to get caught in the middle, unable to expand, and will be squashed. I for one do not wish to play a game in which half the factions are destroyed in the first 50-60 turns.

3) Factions which historically did nothing of major importance in our timeframe include: the Moors, the Burgundii, the Alemanni, the Huns, among others, including the Gepids and Suevi. Yet these others have made it in, to balance out the map.

TLDR; yes, to have the Gepids would be brilliant. But they. Just. Don't. Fit.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 07 February 2011 10:32 EDT (US)     109 / 243       
It's the DARR Cup Semi-Finals!

Tonight's game is Gepidae VS Suevi, and the stadium is already filling up...


Alright, enough of that. The Gepids provide enormous challenge, and thus I kind of like it after all.

On the other hand, the Suevi provide necessary entertainment and challenge for the Visigoths. Take a second, and imagine M2TW without Portugal. *Dramatic Music*

I really don't know which side to support, so I shall sit back for the moment, and let the argument rage on.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 February 2011 10:32 EDT (US)     110 / 243       
The Lombards were in upper Moesia, north of the Danube, but in that big chunk of northern light blue of the original, discarded map. The southern portion we will be making rebel for some gameplay action, or Ostrogothic if they need it.

The Suevi would be boring rather quickly, as noted above. Good for a rebel province, poor for a player faction. And so what if the Visigoths under the AI conquer it and turtle up? Did they not do that very thing in real life? And if the Suevi defeat the Visigoths? Keep going until Visigoths are gone- the same thing every campaign you play. Starting moves would be easy, though.

So the Gepidae don't fit your map? Well, make them fit. Move the Huns east to surround the Bosphorus. Make more provinces in Romania, one of which or maybe both fill the Gepidae, or wait until the provincial map is expanded to cover the east then re-start the debate. The provincial map won't get East until we are done with West.

True the Gepidae are another infantry-heavy faction, but they are one which is an infantry-heavy faction amid a bunch of other factions and bordering on steppe factions as well- a host of challenges for the Gepid player. Maybe history will change and the Gepids defeat the Lombards, or the Lombards head somewhere else and let the Gepidae grow? Possibilities, possibilities. And the Suevi- defeat the Visigoths, or sit still. Wow, what a choice.



Too long? How about a summary:

Make the Gepids fit, or wait until we are done with provinces.

Lombards: Same deal.

Suevi: two choices- sit still, or attack Visigoths. Boring.

Gepids: Choose to attack one of four neighbors and defend against others. Challenging. Challenging=Fun.

Other factions that died quickly made it in? Challenging for the player, fodder for fast-growing other factions- as did happen.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-07-2011 @ 10:38 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 February 2011 10:53 EDT (US)     111 / 243       
@GKA - a better example would be the Aragonese in ChivII, if you've ever played it, I think. :P

@Terikel - Upper Moesia is the northern Greek province which was Ostrogothic in the original map - I believe you're thinking of Pannonia; which again, the Lombardi didn't enter until the 540s.

The Suevi could VERY easily head down to Africa, or indeed sail of to Britain or Armorica. It certainly happens in Med2 total war, and I've seen the Celts skip Britain to hit up Armorica on a number of occasions - I fail to see why it might not happen here.

As for making more regions - sure, we could add more regions, and we could just about anywhere. The problem is avoiding making the area a siegefest.

I very much like the Gepids. Indeed, I had half a mind to suggest we cut someone like the Burgundii or Caliphate, but I figured that wouldn't really help us at all. Or the Norse, who shouldn't really exist. Yet the draw of the Vikings was just too much. I just want to make sure you understand my point of view - after the whole Illyrian thing, I get the impression that faction changes are taboo for the simple reason of 'because we decided that it would be this way.'

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Alpha211
Legionary
posted 07 February 2011 12:27 EDT (US)     112 / 243       
I personally am not sure on which faction to choose (Gepids or Suevi) Gepids could be good but so could suevi

I see the point on the suevi's expansionism & it would be an opponent for the early visigoths
But their are advantages in having the suevi faction in spain, they could fight the visigoths, raid into north africa, strike france & england too
In a way do the visigoths really need a faction opponent & not just rebels in spain itself? (could they do with just rebels and the franks & occasional moorish & vandal raids)

But also the Gepids would be a good challenging campaign for the players
One side gepids could be closed in by other factions & could lose out on early grabs for land but if it accesed the black sea there could be many possibilities and their strong infantry could be a good counter for the hunnic cavalry & rebel troops....
Or do we need the space the Gepids could have been in to let the other factions fight over? (do we need another faction in that area)

(Just naming some pro's & cons)
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 08 February 2011 01:56 EDT (US)     113 / 243       
The Suevi could VERY easily head down to Africa, or indeed sail of to Britain or Armorica. It certainly happens in Med2 total war, and I've seen the Celts skip Britain to hit up Armorica on a number of occasions - I fail to see why it might not happen here.
Oh great, more boat people- said the Romano-Brits, who are already under siege (or should be) by the Anglo-Saxons.

Yes, the Suevi could send a force down to Africa and leave the Visigoths alone. Depends on the AI, really. And also if the Visigoth AI will let that settlement stand while the Suevii are enroute.

So I must amend my previous statement of the Suevi must attack the Visigoths. I now see two other possibilities. The Suevii must either attack the Visigoths to expand, or migrate again. And why not migrate? Migration brought them to Spain, where the Visigoths pushed them into the corner and basically ignored them until they were done settling the Frankish question.

EDIT: In response to the comment concerning several factions dying out relatively quick: that happened in real life, too. By 550, the Vandals were conquered by the ERE, the Gepids fell to the Lombards, the Alemanni fell to the Franks, and later the Saxons as well. The Caliphate emerged and overran North Africa and the Middle east, putting away the Sassanids in the process. The Ostrogoths fell during that time, with the Lombards moving in to Northern Italia and the Burgundians falling to the Franks not long after. The Norse began consolidating, and by 786 they were bursting from the north to sweep with fire and steel across the continent.

The political map of Europe and the Mid-East changed massively between the Fall of the Western Empire and the end of the reign of Charlemagne- but the seeds of this were planted in the Dark Ages. This we wish to recreate.

So if a faction does fall quickly, and did in real life, so what? The key point is for the player to have a challenge. Can he save a doomed faction and bring it to victory? And who really cares about an AI faction (those the player is not choosing to play at that moment)?

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-08-2011 @ 09:37 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 09:33 EDT (US)     114 / 243       
I much prefer to see factions last. And I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one, since the mod XC is very much intended for factions to last. If I wanted the Vandals to fall to Belisarius every time, I'd read a book. And if they do fall, I'd definitely rather they did it later, than early/mid game.

Perhaps I'm unique in this forum in that respect.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 08 February 2011 09:36 EDT (US)     115 / 243       
If I were playing the Vandals, I would want them to last, too.

If I were playing the ERE and going after the Vandals as a springboard to Italia, I would want them to fall.

If I were the playing the Franks or the Saxons, I would not give a shit about the Vandals.

Point is, when you have 20-21 factions and most of them propped into a relatively small area, and some are designed to be stronger, you will have some which die out quickly. That is why I insist that each faction has at least two provinces- to avoid extinction if they lose one battle. After that, they are on their own- just like real life.

Why have the Alemanni at all, if the Franks crushed them in 502? Because it might be fun and challenging to see if with your skill you can make them the premier faction of the West. But if you are playing the Franks, you want to secure your western border before going after those gorgeous horses in Hispana by crushing the Alemanni. Or gaining their resources to finance a war against the Saxons, or take Britannia and make it our own.

No faction should exist simply to keep up numbers. They should provide a challenge, or be historically significant, or fun to play, or all three. Non-player AI-controlled factions will die out no matter what we do, so why bother?

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-08-2011 @ 09:48 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 09:40 EDT (US)     116 / 243       
I wish to reserve judgement on the Gepids Versus Suevi case until we have hammered out the Balkans map. The challenge is good, but still I don't want to see a suffocating Gepid starting position hemmed in on all sides by wolves.

General direction: historical mapping augmented by gameplay orientation, which means allowing more cities in more frequently contested areas, and vice versa. Drak's proposed version in Post 90, while highly gameplay-oriented, is IMHO slightly negligent on the historical divisions. A blend of Terikel's and Drakontos' maps should do the trick.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Punic Hebil
Centurion
(id: Punic Hoplite)
posted 08 February 2011 10:35 EDT (US)     117 / 243       
I also favor at least two provinces. If a faction gets destroyed in litterally three turns, it isn't a successful faction. Take RTW for example. How many of us want to face a strong Seleucid faction, but can't because Egypt rolls over them like a snowball on a hill?

Perhaps what we could do, is have two provinces, or failing that one province but with an exceptionally large army. The AI will continue to use all the units they have given the bonuses players generally give them with the level they play at. A human generally beats the AI 4/5 of the time, and can use the armies given to them to secure themselves more provinces, or reduce their army for a more challenging campaign.

I am the Carthaginian who became an angel, and surrendered his wings for a life on the sea of battle.

My magic screen is constantly bombarded with nubile young things eager to please these old eyes. This truly is a wonderful period in which to exist! - Terikel the Deflowerer
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 12:26 EDT (US)     118 / 243       
I agree that factions should not be wiped out within 10 turns but I agree that various factions will be killed off in a short-"ish" time span giving way to the stronger rising faction powers.
But I think that there should be at least some factions that last longer & not have alot of factions be wiped off the map by some "juggernaut" faction
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 February 2011 12:38 EDT (US)     119 / 243       
I didn't think I was that liberal with historical divisions, myself, GKA.

Just for reference, care to give me an idea where you think I messed up, so I can try to fix it and provide an updated version?

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 08 February 2011 13:42 EDT (US)     120 / 243       
I just found this chart: link

Notice the dates in the first chart, and who killed who.

Further down the page is a variety of factional information, just waiting to be lifted out, processed, and inputted into our game...

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 05:24 EDT (US)     121 / 243       
Just for reference, care to give me an idea where you think I messed up, so I can try to fix it and provide an updated version?
Well, it's not strictly wrong, but the shapes. Some are too square-like, while others may inspire imaginations to undesirable things. The cities distribution I like, but the shapes could be better. It's possibly personal taste, but hey you asked. I'd like to see a higher degree of refinement in your update, please?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 09:38 EDT (US)     122 / 243       
Seriously, I didn't change Tribus Iazyges at all! I may have bumped the border accidentally cleaning up the colours, but your phallic obsession ought to be sparked as much from CA's map as my rendition.

I shall take a look at Gaul and Germany shortly.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Rinster
Legionary
posted 10 February 2011 20:01 EDT (US)     123 / 243       
this might seem sort of naive, and I don't know if we have reached the province limit, but I really think we should add more settlements, because one reason I prefer vanilla RTW to BI is that there is a lot more settlements, even though I like BI gameplay better. But that's not the point, I just don't know if it would work, or if it's a good idea, but that is something that I propose we could do.

Main Idea: Add more provinces
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 11 February 2011 12:55 EDT (US)     124 / 243       
oh, rinster are you commenting on the first prototype map or the one in post 90? also do you propose more settlements overall (as some select areas have quite a few regions in close proximity) or in the certain areas where there are the more "larger" regions (because some areas are more sparsely populated at the time (etc. the north-eastern steppes)

But i know what you mean with the RTW & BI

Do we need more settlements?
Rinster
Legionary
posted 11 February 2011 18:15 EDT (US)     125 / 243       
What I mean is that overall there is less settlements yes, but especially in Greece, Asia Minor, Italy (and Sicily), and maybe to a lesser extent Gaul. It just seems more fun when there are more settlements.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 15 February 2011 02:11 EDT (US)     126 / 243       
Shall we start looking at each province's capital?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 15 February 2011 12:03 EDT (US)     127 / 243       
Rinster: Yes I see what you mean and know what your talking about

GKA: I agree that we should
TiGeR1812
Legionary
posted 15 March 2011 15:42 EDT (US)     128 / 243       
Well, since i want this mod to be ready as soon as possible and other supporters told me that they need all the help they can get i searched a little for new units that are probabily needed for this mod. They are from a game called knights of honor. These are a few pictures of them:

Norse units:

http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/normans.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/vikings.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/varangians.gif

Since Normans and Varangians weren't around in the 4th-5th century you should rename Normans in Norse Swordsmen and Varangians in Elite Vikings or something like that.

Berber Units:

http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/desert_archer.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/desert_spearmen.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/desert_cavalry.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/mameluks.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/camelrider.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/saracens.gif

They can be used for the Sassanids, Copts and the Caliphate too, but Saracens need to be renamed. Desert Swordsmen would fit i think.

Byzantine Units:

http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/roman_infantry.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/pronoias.gif

Roman Infantry can be used for the Western Roman Empire too.

Slav Units:

http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/slavonic_axemen.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/slavonic_bowmen.gif

These should be added along with the old BI Slav units.

Romano-Briton Units:

http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/hobilars.gif

Other Units:

http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/archer.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/axemen.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/swordsmen.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/spearmen.gif
http://www.genovino.it/koh/unita_file/cavalry.gif

The last ones can be used for factions that really lack units.

If you need anything else just ask.
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 20 April 2011 21:46 EDT (US)     129 / 243       
More help is always appreciated, but unfortunately it's illegal for us to use units from other games.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 21 April 2011 06:26 EDT (US)     130 / 243       
Ah, and here comes Mythic at last.

Any comments on the map? We've decided to take out the Illyrians and insert the Lombards while you were away.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
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Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 21 April 2011 06:41 EDT (US)     131 / 243       
See post 98 for the latest version of the map under discussion.

I am thinking we ought to divide Burgundy in half- north Burgundy and South Burgundy, to allow the faction the chance to avoid being wiped out in a single bad battle.

Thoughts?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 21 April 2011 08:03 EDT (US)     132 / 243       
Or we could put the starting field army in the southern province - gives the player a clear sense of direction from the start, too.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

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Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 22 April 2011 14:53 EDT (US)     133 / 243       
Me like. As for Burgundy, I see two possible options - one being that we divide the province, the other being to, as GKA has suggested, give them an army in the south at the start of the game (said army would, of course, have to be large enough to be able to use it offensively), which has the advantage of forcing the Burgundians to be aggressive. I'm leaning towards the latter option, but frankly either would work.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 22 April 2011 18:20 EDT (US)     134 / 243       
To be honest, I think Burgundy should have a little more of France.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaţáttr, #77.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 22 April 2011 20:22 EDT (US)     135 / 243       
What I wanted to suggest was to cut Burgundy in half: Burgundians start with northern half, rebels (Roman rebels?) start with southern half, but the Burgundian starting field army is in the southern half - ready to kickstart their territorial expansion/ consolidation plans.

Still liking?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 23 April 2011 03:24 EDT (US)     136 / 243       
Said southern region could always be Marseilles. The Burgundians did historically control it, albeit much later.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 23 April 2011 11:02 EDT (US)     137 / 243       
Or Massilia? And the much later bit would justify their not holding it in the beginning...

Regarding starting field armies, I am of the opinion that we shouldn't start factions off with full stacks as was the case in Roma Surrectum - it beats the whole point of developing your economic and military infrastructure (ie. teching up) to get your faction's top units, IMHO. We could provide high-level buildings to historically advanced factions from the start and let them build good armies themselves, but please, no starting full stacks.

Sorry, this was kind of off-topic.

On-topic:

Can we please get the latest version posted in the next few posts to get a sense of direction going again?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 23 April 2011 12:17 EDT (US)     138 / 243       

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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Mythic_Commodore
Ministerialis
posted 23 April 2011 13:52 EDT (US)     139 / 243       
Hmmm, I don't think we should limit ourselves by taking away the option to start with a full stack. I don't think that that will defeat the purpose of developing infrastructure so long as the stacks don't include any good units (ie if they're full stacks of Tier 1 and Tier 2 units).

Terikel, I like where you're going with this map. I think that we one of the things that this design does a good job of preserving is the small number of provinces that characterized vanilla BI. We need to try and keep that, because fewer provinces will mean that each province is more valuable and will help to preserve the feel of vanilla BI.

Cyclohexane - it's what's for dinner!
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 23 April 2011 20:55 EDT (US)     140 / 243       
Alright, quick poll: who likes starting full stacks? And who likes the feel of vanilla BI (ie fewer provinces)?

BTW, I think Terikel's mapping direction works for me because it makes for more provinces than BI (just look at Italia for example).

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 23 April 2011 21:12 EDT (US)     141 / 243       
RE: Frankish Map

Can we do Neustria, Austrasia and Burgundy a little bit differently - Neustria without that southeastern buttock, or belly, Austrasia's south end be more pointed to give more ground to Neustria and Swabia, and Burgundy take up the southeastern swath ceded by Neustria. North Provence could also be less rounded to give ground to Burgundy and that OG turf.

I refer to this wiki map.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 04-24-2011 @ 06:37 AM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 24 April 2011 06:42 EDT (US)     142 / 243       
I fixed your link. It works now.

That was the map I used (the 500 version) to draw from. I gave a bit more of the coast to Austrasia since I enlarge Frisia. The result was the bulging belly.

I could give Burgundy a bit more, as I gave a bit of Burgundy to Provence.

I'll whip something up on Tuesday or so.

Question: Are we done with Spain and Britannia now?

I don't want to ask someone to generate a map if we are just going to change it. We can discuss and adjust the hand-drawn pencil map all we want, but a digital version takes much time and I would not want someone wasting theirs if it is going to change again.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 02 May 2011 22:48 EDT (US)     143 / 243       
Thanks.

Overall, the rough bearings and layout are fine. The regions just need a less rounded and more "pointed" feel in the final map.

Britain isn't quite okay...

For Britian, that Deva province needs to include Old Cumberland as per final agreement in the RB thread. Jorvik should be Britannia Interior, composed of "Northern, Central and Central Southern England" - not that swath of "East Anglia". Cantii should be Anglia, "broadly speaking Kent, London and East Anglia and everything in between". Cambria and Dumnonia, in short, should share more of a land border, as should Cambria and Britannia Interior. Cantii should be smaller and more leaning to the right, as the historical Saxons were just starting to carve out their own kingdoms from the east to the west. i.e. Sort of like Mythic's map in the OP, just more polished and Anglia smaller.

Spain is alright, except for Baetica, Lusitania and Toletum. Give a slice of North Baetica to Lusitania, and give a chunk of NE Lusitania to Toletum. The Suevic Kingdom's SW tail could be extended along the coastline a bit?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 05-02-2011 @ 10:50 PM).]

Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 03 May 2011 05:04 EDT (US)     144 / 243       
I have adjusted Britannia, Neustria, Austrasi, and Provence.

Spain I am going to leave as is for a few reasons- one, it follows pretty much the borders of the time and/or the defining rivers and mountains. Two, it is about equal distribution. Three, the finalized (digital) version will be more precise than my hand-drawn pencil sketches.

Coming soon: the new pic of Western Europe.


|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 05-03-2011 @ 05:07 AM).]

Drakontos
Legionary
posted 03 May 2011 05:20 EDT (US)     145 / 243       
I maintain that southern Italy needs to be one region. And I would consider cutting the southern edge off Galicia and giving it to Lusitania. Because, well, it was Lusitania.

But I can understand keeping it as it, representing the Suevi Kingdom vs the rest of Lusitania.

PROCRASTINATE NOT · JAMAIS ARRIERE
Big Red Rob
Legionary
(id: Feudal Principes)
posted 07 May 2011 15:25 EDT (US)     146 / 243       
I can't beleive I missed the Romano-British discussion. I have just done an extended project on Deva (a college qualification), and I know so much about that place now. I even had an interview with the curator of Grosvenor museum about the place. Quite interesting.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 09 September 2011 16:16 EDT (US)     147 / 243       
Sooo... any more ideas re the map, amici?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 10 September 2011 03:14 EDT (US)     148 / 243       
I don't think we're gonna finish this.

There, I said it.

Maybe we should start with something smaller, like just the West or just the British Isles. I myself would love a provincial campaign with our RBs, Saxons, and maybe throw in the WRE and Norse as emergent factions. The Alemanni could be revamped to make the Irish, while the Gepids can be made into the Scots. The RBs would obviously have to be split into two or three factions (eg. Dumnonia, Powys and Elmet) for it to satisfy but overall I think it's a better option than what we're doing now, considering the manpower and resources available.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 10 September 2011 04:04 EDT (US)     149 / 243       
If we remember that the hand-drawn map is just a rough draft and that the final version will be more accurate, we can stop nitpicking over a curve here and there and get the general ideas nailed down.

Then we can move on to the east.

I'll do some research for how provincial borders looked eastward in that time and add them to the map and we can discuss them. This should be done shortly (before Wednesday, I hope)

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 11 September 2011 02:28 EDT (US)     150 / 243       
I've had that feeling for a long time, GKA...

But starting all over again doesn't seem like the best idea, to me. Perhaps if we start actually fiddling with the files themselves, we might be able to stimulate some interest again... actually start this mod.

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