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Dark Ages: Roman Revival
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Topic Subject:The Western Roman Empire
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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 09 February 2011 10:58 EDT (US)         
Our grand empire has fallen on hard times. Once we ruled Our Sea and the lands beyond, now we can barely keep our capital of Ravenna safe from barbarian intrusion. The last few centuries since Diocletian’s division of the Roman empire have been hard indeed on the West.

We lost Gaul to the Franks, Hispana to the Visigoths, and abandoned Britannia to bring the legions home to defend Italia. A nice try, but it did not work. The Ostrogoths overran Italia and took our ancestral home- Rome- to be one of its cities. Not even the capital of their newfound kingdom, but a common burg in their eyes.

We too would have gone the way of Rome and become a barbarian enclave amidst the ruins of civilization, yet we did not. Valentinian tried to murder Aetius, who together with the Visigoths and Franks had driven the Huns from Gaul and back to the Windswept Plains which spawned them. Yet it was Valentinian and his cronies who perished in that ill-fated attempt, and Aetius who usurped the crown.

Since that time, we Romans have been blessed with a resurgence. The Aetian Dynasty is strong and its generals loyal- they will not turn on our emperor to rip the life out of what is left of the light which once shone across the whole Mediterranean! Aetius also gave heart to our legions, and to our citizens.

Rome lives on in Ravenna, but her destiny is perilous. We Romans need a strong warlord to guide our emperor, and bring us back to the heights from which we have fallen.

Are you that warlord? Assume the reins of power, and lead the Western Roman Empire from the brink of extinction back to its rightful place in the forefront of the World.

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AuthorReplies:
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 April 2011 08:42 EDT (US)     151 / 258       
reducing "Distance to Capital" penalties
I'm not sure that is possible, unfortunately.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 07 April 2011 10:45 EDT (US)     152 / 258       
Somehow I am not surprised. That one is hard-coded by physical geographical distance to the capital, eh?

How about increasing the bonus called "Buildings of Entertainment, Fun, Culture, and the Maintenance of Good Order"? I know it's something of a stretch, but if D to Cap isn't do-able... Also, we could allow training of the Spies and Assassins at the Imperial Post too, or have them trainable separately, like Spies from the Post, and Assassins from the Market. Or not, just suggesting. The Arcanus/Praeventor retinue member definitely comes from the Post Office though.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 07 April 2011 10:57 EDT (US)     153 / 258       
Law cancels corruption, which is what distance from capital influences.

Give the postal service a law bonus.

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Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 07 April 2011 15:00 EDT (US)     154 / 258       
I personally would assume that such a service would require decent roads in the area, no? Perhaps it could have Highways as a req, grant a law bonus and have some trait/retinue bonuses for spies or assassins.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 07 April 2011 21:09 EDT (US)     155 / 258       
Well, Paved Roads are also quite decent already compared with the dirt paths some of the other factions can build. How about:

Tier 3 - Paved Roads -> Cursus Publicus Station
Tier 4 - Highways -> Cursus Publicus Headquarters

The Cursus Publicus was founded under Augustus as the state-run post service for government dispatch relays.

About their bonus: maybe a bit of both? At tier 3 it grants a 5% happiness bonus (hey my soldier boy's sent me some of his pay from the frontier, yay!), at tier 4 it grants 5% more of the same, and 5% to law.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 07 April 2011 22:03 EDT (US)     156 / 258       
I don't know if we have discussed this yet (i'm too lazy to look), but is the WRE still going to be allies with the ERE? Or is the ERE going to leave them for dead?

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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 08 April 2011 07:19 EDT (US)     157 / 258       
I don't know. If this is actual history, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The ERE might be happy to see fellow Romans still hanging in there after so long, or they might deem the Aetian emperors unworthy of holding the West - they are - and so would be looking to eliminate this thorn in their side as they tried to reclaim the lost West.

EDIT:

Bucellarii as crossbowmen could attract some controversy out there because according to wiki, "soon the term came to be applied indiscriminately to well-equipped cavalry troops". Now the term arcuballista referred to a crossbow, so we could use Roman Crossbowmen or Arcuballistarii (personal invention).

Bucellarii, meanwhile, can replace the Equites Palatini?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-08-2011 @ 10:53 AM).]

Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 08 April 2011 15:40 EDT (US)     158 / 258       
Setting: "The year is 454 Anno Dominus. Flavius Aetius has defeated the Huns on the Catalaunian Plains, driving the Scourge of God back to the steppes from whence he came. Valentinian III is the Roman Emperor in the west, and bids his loyal general come to the capital at Ravenna to be honored. Instead of honors, Valentinian drew forth a dagger and made to plunge it into the chest of the one man who could save The Roman Empire of the West from a cataclysmic plunge into obscurity. Aetius, a warrior, plucked the dagger from the hands of the weak-kneed emperor and slew him instead, founding a new house and a chance of the Roman Empire in the West rising once again to greatness.

It will be needed. In the East, Zeno of the Eastern Romans is losing his grip. Enemies abound, outside and in. And in the deep desert to the southeast, strange stirrings arise..." - Terikel

The mod will start in 500 AD, where Aetius' leadership changed the course of the decline of Rome, allowing the empire to survive, albeit in a limited form...Their only hope is to attempt to cut back on the things that contributed to their decline in the first place, by decreasing the political power of the military, reducing corruption, and making the Roman legions the world's most feared fighting force once more. Whether they will revert to the worship of the old gods or not is unclear at this point.
from the original discussion.

Bit of a side-track. If aetius did saved the west, why is it stuck with just one weak province in need of great reforms, if aetius already made some reform and stabilised the WRE? The WRE should than at least be able to hold Gallia Cisalpina, parts of the alps and probably some part of souther Gaul too. Maybe even some part of Illyria?

So I think our current proposal for the WRE doesn't match the story.

A few options:
1 I'm the only one who thinks this and never mind
2 We change the story
3 we change the WRE
4 or a more radical change, we declare the WRE dead and let the revival of roman power come from the more rich, united and strong ERE
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 09 April 2011 05:16 EDT (US)     159 / 258       
The effect of the Aetian dynasty was that they managed to hold on to Ravenna and one other little province. They were not enough to stop the Ostrogths from conquering the rest of Italy, and not enough to launch a war to recover Italia from the barbarians.

That is the task of the Player.
founding a new house and a chance of the Roman Empire in the West
Highlighted an important part.



They didn't so much reform the army- just deleted some of the causes of the decline: namely, debased coinage, political generals, infighting and civil war (well, that one sort of cured itself, as a general going rebel would destroy the faction he wanted to take over). Just a few small things to keep the Romans alive as a faction.

Larger reforms, such as remodeling the army, would occur later, when/if the Roman play captures Rome.

The ERE is big enough. With the mechanics of the game, the ERE should be able to take on the combined power of the rest of the world and beat it easily. That is why we are going to split off the Copts (taking away rich Egypt), set the Ostrogoths and ERE as enemies to get them at war immediately, and bring on the Caliphate. To keep the Ostrogths from crunching the remaining bit of WRE, we have the Franks as WRE allies (Childeric, anyone?) and at odds with the OG's.

The game is called Roman Revival, as a challenge to the player to revive the dying empire. Had we started with no WRE, we would simply call it Dark Ages. But that is no challenge- that is just simple warfare.

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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 04-09-2011 @ 05:33 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 09 April 2011 10:25 EDT (US)     160 / 258       
I agree with Terikel's elaborate elaborations. All Aetius and his followers have managed is to hold on to the last few Roman strongholds and enclaves on native Italian soil - the long-time imperial capital of Ravenna and one other province - and that they haven't managed to turn things around just yet. Perhaps they are about to do so, or perhaps they only need a catalyst to be on the way, or perhaps they're just doomed men waiting to cave in under the relentless Ostrogothic assault. That, as has already been elaborately pointed out, is for the player to decide.

So, with that out of the way, I have a summary of the diplomatic situation here:

The West and the Ostrogoths are at each other's throats for Italian dominance. The West's got the Franks on their side, while the Ostrogoths may have the Visigoths as allies (Theodoric the Great did have a lot to do with Visigothic affairs at the time). It is unclear at this point which side the ERE is on - their fellow Romans', their soon-to-be viceroy Theodoric's, or their own.

In short, we could be seeing these blocs:

Western Bloc: WRE, Franks
Gothic Bloc: Ostrogoths, Visigoths (who are allies of the Burgundians)
Eastern Bloc: ERE

RE: Western Roman Reforms

So they take place upon the Western Roman capture of Rome?

RE: Bucellarii

I have another idea. We could do a Mounted Crossbowmen unit called Bucellarii, replacing the Equites Sagittarii unit. You guys like?

EDIT: BTW, the Burgundians' thread is almost good to close. Please go and take a look so we can get some thread turnover soon.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-09-2011 @ 10:35 AM).]

Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 09 April 2011 11:34 EDT (US)     161 / 258       
Ok then never mind my previous comment

I have little time now, but I'll later come up with a quote about belisarius and bucellari, suggesting that bucellari were more heavy cavalry-like.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 09 April 2011 21:19 EDT (US)     162 / 258       
He came to the attention of Justin and his nephew, Justinian, as a promising and innovative officer. He was given permission by the emperor to form a bodyguard regiment (bucellarii), of heavy cavalry. He was given permission to expand this unit into a personal household regiment, 1,500 strong. Belisarius' bucellarii were the nucleus around which all the armies he would later command were organized. Armed with lance, Hunnish composite bow, throwing darts, and broadsword, they were fully armored to the standard of heavy cavalry of the day. A multi-purpose unit, they were capable of skirmishing at a distance with bow, like the Huns; or could act as heavy shock cavalry, charging and crushing an enemy with lance and sword. In essence, they combined the best and most dangerous aspects of both of Rome's greatest enemies, the Huns and the Goths.
A great unit, but perhaps belonging to the ERE? Weapons-wise, since only two could be carried in-game, the broadsword and the composite bow seem apt.

I initially thought of their unsuitability as infantry crossbowmen, and suggested changing that into heavy cav (Palatini) instead. Then another thought came to me - why not combine the two and have a mounted crossbowmen unit instead? But I see that's also inaccurate.

Either way, Bucellarii can't stay on as the vanilla crossbowmen they were, but the idea of an infantry crossbow unit in the WRE is worth keeping. "Roman Crossbowmen/ Arcuballistarii"...

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-11-2011 @ 09:54 PM).]

Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 10 April 2011 15:53 EDT (US)     163 / 258       
the quote I was going to give suggest that they held either a spear or two-handed lance combined with a composite bow. horses were probably not (heavily) armored, but the men were.

Perhaps an interesting way to distiguish the west from the eastern romans:

East focus on cavalry and archery and pretty low quality infantry

West focus on infantry, worse cav and archers.

That does seems to be accurate
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 11 April 2011 12:02 EDT (US)     164 / 258       
Thats a good idea Thompsoncs
I did some short research and it suggests some veteran/elite roman cavalry units (of the western roman empire) near the fall of the empire were trained with composite bow & two handed lance (medium cav) (though GKA's point of bow & sword could be "apt") (I'm not sure this was the Bucellarii bodyguards GKA found or some other "special" branch of the roman cav)

Would perhaps we have a General purpose unit like this in the WRE roster with the lance (added charge) & a heavier slightly less melee strong horse archer unit in the ERE?
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 11 April 2011 22:35 EDT (US)     165 / 258       
East focus on cavalry and archery and pretty low quality infantry

West focus on infantry, worse cav and archers.
My idea was to mirror the East's and West's infantry so that the WRE Pre-Reforms infantry roster is copied to the ERE's. But, since the WRE gets to reform while the ERE is more or less stuck with the same units all the way, mirroring infantry rosters doesn't seem to be a good answer to balancing. While the basic Limitanei and Comies are musts for both halves, the East did rely increasingly on foreign heavy infantry mercenaries from Frankia (and later, Varangians). Cavalry grew more prominent in the East, with the advent of units like the Clibinarii, Cataphractii, and Bucellarii.

So we could indeed focus the WRE on heavy infantry (about to get even heavier post-reforms), with reliable light troops and good cav (they are going up against Franks, Goths, and Vandals, and eventually the East, after all). The ERE focuses on traditional late Roman infantry augmented by regularly recruitable foreign mercenary arms (Franks), with impressive heavily-armoured cavalry units (they also had a taste for foreign light cavalry mercenaries like the Huns and Alans), plus stronger archers and light troops. We could even throw in those Marines I spoke of in the General Discussion thread to help players simulate the Justinian Wars?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.

[This message has been edited by GeneralKickAss (edited 04-11-2011 @ 10:37 PM).]

vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 00:58 EDT (US)     166 / 258       
The ERE still recruited soldiers in their borders, the Isaurians, for example. Who formed the Excubitors and other units, and had several of their own become Emperors (Zeno comes to mind)

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Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 04:30 EDT (US)     167 / 258       
The eastern roman infantry in the justinian wars were of inferior quality. They mutinied multiple times, suffered defeats because they were to eager for plunder and broke ranks, so that the routing enemy could rally and defeat them. The infantry at the Persian border wasn't different from this at all.

Belisarius never gave his infantry the main role in battle, the cavalry fought his battle, supported by infantry. Infantry were mostly used as garrison troops which of course reduced discipline and fighting experience.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 11:05 EDT (US)     168 / 258       
I wouldn't put mutiny down as an indicator of troop quality - the Roman legionaries even in the days of the Republic or the early Principate mutinied frequently against their commander for pay delays, poor operating conditions, desires for rotations or prompt discharge, etc. Other times they mutinied because their general wouldn't rise up and rebel against the current emperor, like in Julian's case in the fourth century. Still, the Roman legions remained markedly superior and more sophisticated than the vast majority of their foreign enemies.

A poorer standard of discipline, yes, as can be observed from the evidently increasing tendency of Late Roman soldiers to express themselves outright to their commander, because they knew they had the ability to both make or break emperors as they please, prompting them to throw off more restraints than they would have dared when in the early Principate. Generals held less and less control over their men, except those under his direct charge as his household troops (i.e. Bucellarii) who were often the only ones with disciplinary standards ever approaching the level and norm of professional Roman armies in the previous centuries.

If you got your research from Adrian Goldsworthy's In the Name of Rome, I can tell you that I've read it also and I understand totally the point you're making. Yet I am not sure whether the questionable quality of the troops on the Eastern frontier applies to all infantry across the Eastern Empire...
Belisarius, p. 410-411
Although 529 had been spent in peace negotiations, Justinian had also been preparing for open war and the newly appointed Belisarius had some 25,000 men concentrated at his base at Dara, a very large army for this period. It is unclear what proportion of this force consisted of cavalry, although it may have been as much as a third. The infantry seem to have been of questionable quality, in part perhaps because the raid-dominated warfare on the eastern frontier gave them far fewer opportunities for seeing active service than their mounted counterparts. Their experience was more often of garrison life and policing duties rather than actual combat.
That doesn't mean the same for the rest of the empire.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Thompsoncs
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 11:35 EDT (US)     169 / 258       
But the reasons for the mutinies were profoundly different from the principate and republic. They were as you say, well aware of their power to make or break the emperor/general. In the principate the reasons for mutiny were mostly serious, in the late empire if the soldiers didn't feel like doing something that could become a mutiny.

My source is indeed in the name of rome (and the fall of rome -not sure if that's the proper english name though- from same author). In this book the author mentions that belisarius continued to rely on his cavalry, both in the persian and western wars. And he was unable to control his troops in both africa and italy, in the case of Italy this resulted in defeats, in africa he was lucky that the vandals couldn't rally enough men.

From this you could conclude that the infantry on his western campaign didn't really differ too much from the eastern infantry. This book also suggest that the eastern infantry was only slightly better than the persian infantry which can mean two things
1 persians improved their infantry, which sucked in the past
2 or roman infantry declined until the difference between them and the persians was gone.

But perhaps the infantry on the danube-border was better, because enemies there were, like the enemies of the WRE, more infantry based.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 12 April 2011 21:15 EDT (US)     170 / 258       
Point understood, but the topic is too arguable and too hard to conclude based purely on infantry performance in one general's campaigns. There was no evidence to suggest that Justinian gave his favorite general the best of his infantry for the latter's campaigns to the east and the west, and if I'm not much mistaken, it is understandable since the emperor usually likes to refrain from giving too much power to his subordinates, as had been the case for much of late Roman history. Belisarius had to build his own elite corps, and he chose to build them as tough-ass heavy cavalry in the form of the Bucellarii, and received a bunch of throwaway infantry to take with him on his campaigns, which he rarely used anyway due to their dubious quality.
The Byzantine Empire's military tradition originated in the late Roman period, and its armies always included professional infantry soldiers. Though they varied in relative importance during the Byzantine army's history, under Basil II in particular heavy infantry were an important component of the Byzantine army. These troops generally had mail armour, large shields, and were armed with swords and spears. Under militarily competent emperors such as Basil II, they were among the best heavy infantry in the world.
If their infantry quality did vary from time to time, and if Belisarius was indeed not given some of the best infantry in the empire at the time, then I believe there is no reason to significantly downgrade ERE infantry. They should boast infantry which are at least on par with WRE pre-reforms infantry. Limitanei (which could form the bulk of the starting eastern garrisons), Comitatenses (majority starting in Greece and Anatolia), Comitatus Praesentalis (around Constantinople, of course, if we do decide to start them with any).

But we're veering off course here, slightly.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 22 April 2011 21:29 EDT (US)     171 / 258       
RE: Praetoriani Invicti

I have another idea as to how we can recruit these - make a special building only buildable in Rome, called Castrum Praetoria (once the barracks for the Praetorian Guard), that would allow recruitment of these tough sumbitches.

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 24 April 2011 20:39 EDT (US)     172 / 258       
Gahhhhh, this thread has been going on for quite a while compared to the barbarian ones.

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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 25 April 2011 04:15 EDT (US)     173 / 258       
That is because there is more to discuss.

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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 25 April 2011 05:35 EDT (US)     174 / 258       
Castra Praetoria, to be more accurate. We be liking?

Thoughts on the Western Roman Navy? Should they be equipped with the same traditional Biremes-Triremes-Quinquiremes roster both before and after the Reforms, or should there be some adaptations and adjustments?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
Guild of the Skalds, Order of the Silver Quill, Apprentice Storyteller
Battle of Ilipa, 206BC - XI TWH Egil Skallagrimson Award

The word dyslexia was invented by Nazis to piss off kids with dyslexia.
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 26 April 2011 02:46 EDT (US)     175 / 258       
The Western navy should start at triremes (biremes were extinct by this point), progress to quadremes (or Librunians), and finish at quinqueremes.

The naval arms race of how many extra oars/oarsmen one could get pretty much went out with Actium.

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|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 29 April 2011 17:56 EDT (US)     176 / 258       
Surely triremes were also extinct? They'd been around since the First Medic War (classical Athens) at least as far as I know. I would start it at liburnians, the basic light galley, then quinqueremes, which will be ridiculously expensive and very heavy and slow, then progress to dromons if anything (a Byzantine evolution of the liburnian), otherwise drop it after quinqueremes. Rome has long ceased to be a naval power; all and any naval units should be very expensive, far too expensive for the early game.

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[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 04-29-2011 @ 06:08 PM).]

vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 30 April 2011 04:55 EDT (US)     177 / 258       
I legitimately think we should have ninjas. Due to mathmatical equation = Rome=Awespme. Ninjas=Awesome. Therefore Rome=Ninjas!.

Anyway, silliness aside, wiki says Liburnian was a general term for ships by this time. And apparently the art of building triremes had been lost. But do ship names really matter? Call Roman ships Liburnians, barbarians ones boats, and Persian ones something a bit Persian (I am unaware of Sassanid boatbuilding, if it indeed existed.)

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 30 April 2011 10:36 EDT (US)     178 / 258       
Triremes existed until late 1600's, and then were still around in some parts until the 1700's. The later versions had covered benches protecting the oarsmen and other liburnian traits, not like the open triremes of the earlier years ( which went out with the bireme).

The Roman navy went to shit with the utter lack of anyone to fight against. Pompey had settled the pirate problem quite handily; the liburnians and other light ships were enough to keep them down until the Empire itself went under. All of the main contenders for sea power in the Med had otherwise fallen to Roman land power, leaving nothing but pirates- and fighting pirates required light, fast warships like the liburnians. Thus the great fleets disappeared with the lack of a foe, and small, swift squadrons appeared.

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GeneralKickAss
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posted 02 May 2011 07:01 EDT (US)     179 / 258       
Vandals would be a major maritime power in 500, yes? As would the Norse, the Saxons and the ERE. Liburnians, Triremes, Quinquiremes and Dromons were the four mainstream ship types. Why not the first three for the WRE all the way and be done with it?

And by the way, the Quinquiremes should be more expensive, but let's make the light ships cheaper to balance out. Would encourage the trend of small, maneuverable fleets anyway.

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Drakontos
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posted 06 May 2011 16:47 EDT (US)     180 / 258       
Works for me!

And yes, those would be the major sea powers. Maybe not quite so much the Saxons, but that's up for discussion. They do need to be capable of resisting the Norse, after all.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 06 May 2011 22:29 EDT (US)     181 / 258       
The Saxons are supposed to be the major northern sea power in 500AD, yes? But since we all wanted the Norse Vikings to come in early, that makes quite a few major sea powers: the ERE, Vandals and to some extent the WRE for the Med, and the Saxons and Norse for the North Sea.

Working up a summary so we can get some thread turnover...

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Big Red Rob
Legionary
(id: Feudal Principes)
posted 07 May 2011 15:08 EDT (US)     182 / 258       
I just want to say about the later reforms happening when you capture Rome.
If you are playing as the western Roman Empire, and you have only Ravenna, Rome in enemy hands, won't you see your main objective as re-capturing Rome, therefore this will be one of the first places you capture, won't it?
Therefore the reforms will happen quite soon, nuless either Rome is made difficult to capture, or it does not trigger the reforms.
(I did read that right, didn't I, or is that not what triggers a reform?)

[This message has been edited by Feudal Principes (edited 05-07-2011 @ 03:10 PM).]

Rinster
Legionary
posted 08 May 2011 09:53 EDT (US)     183 / 258       
That is what triggers the reforms, but I think that is the idea, so that the player as Rome can quickly get the revamped units, otherwise he/she probably won't last too long against the barbarians. I think that's why it's called Roman Revival

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 08 May 2011 10:51 EDT (US)     184 / 258       
If that is the case, I fail to see why we're bothering with an extensive pre-reform roster.

Rather, the exact mechanism isn't yet determined, but I think it had something to do with huge cities and imperial palaces and generally expensive things in Rome. Even if they take it quickly, triggering the reforms will be hard, or something.

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Big Red Rob
Legionary
(id: Feudal Principes)
posted 08 May 2011 15:51 EDT (US)     185 / 258       
Yeah it should be hard.
vampiric canniba
Legionary
posted 09 May 2011 02:04 EDT (US)     186 / 258       
Shouldn't it be easy enough for the AI to trigger it fairly reliably, though?

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GeneralKickAss
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posted 13 May 2011 23:00 EDT (US)     187 / 258       
What would you define as an extensive roster, Drak? Any roster with more than 10 units?

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Drakontos
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posted 14 May 2011 06:00 EDT (US)     188 / 258       
Extensive in that it's about the same size as the vanilla roster, including high-level troops - which frankly, if the reforms were intented to happen very quickly... would not be necessary.

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 14 May 2011 21:48 EDT (US)     189 / 258       
Well, let's consider the high-tier units as back-ups at this point, since we can't seem to get a clear direction on the Reforms. Please give me a break and don't regard the extensive pre-Reforms roster as anything more than a rough and freely adjustable draft.

Reviewing the Reforms thread, the final plan seemed to be this:
I'm thinking that the reforms that are replacing the Marian Reforms would be equivalent to the first stage of reforms in the original plan, ie, they would allow the Romans to train chain-mail legionaries (like vanilla's Early Legionary Cohorts) equivalent in strength to the pre-Marian Romans. The Caesarian reforms could also unlock a new building for the Romans, called, for example, a "Magna Castra" (great fort) that allows them to train units very similar to the post-Marian Romans of vanilla. But these details belong in a future WRE discussion thread. For now, I think that we can summarize it as Caesarian Reforms = WRE upgrades Rome to a Huge City = new general's bodyguards for "all factions" (this I think not), Romans get new unit roster, access to expensive building that allows them to get a further improved unit roster.

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Terikel Grayhair
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(id: Terikel706)
posted 15 May 2011 04:52 EDT (US)     190 / 258       
There would be a major problem with the WRE if we cut their pre-reform roster to bare bones, then they were not able to coplete the trigger for the Reforms. They'd be stuck with pre-reform troops and never get anywhere.

Thus a full pre-reform roster is necessary in case one cannot trigger the reforms.

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GeneralKickAss
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posted 15 May 2011 21:06 EDT (US)     191 / 258       
Adding to Terikel's point, keep in mind that most, if not all, of the pre-R units will also go into the ERE roster, so the work can't be avoided anyways.

Also, the post-Reforms roster could be quite OP, and in the long-run experienced players might want to try not getting the Reforms just yet and play with the old but less OP one for challenge.

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Seneca Monachus
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posted 20 May 2011 11:34 EDT (US)     192 / 258       
what would the faction symbol of the WRE be?

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GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 20 May 2011 22:04 EDT (US)     193 / 258       
I thought it would still be the vanilla P-on-an-X thing.

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GeneralKickAss
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posted 26 May 2011 21:46 EDT (US)     194 / 258       
Should I get a summary drafted or do you guys still have anything to add? Maybe you'll find something to add once you look at a draft summary eh?

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 27 May 2011 01:22 EDT (US)     195 / 258       
Faction symbol should be an Eagle carrying a wreath. The Flavians were old-school.

Also, religion- do we let the old gods make a comeback?

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GeneralKickAss
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posted 27 May 2011 06:54 EDT (US)     196 / 258       
I say do it. The trio of Christianity, Paganism (which includes Zoroastrianism) and Islam certainly allows for it. The key distinguishing feature could be a focus on happiness with the Christian churches and a focus on military and trade upgrades with the Pagan temples.

On symbols, should the Eastern and the Western symbols have some degree of comparability/ a similar theme?

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 27 May 2011 07:06 EDT (US)     197 / 258       
I think the P over X should be ERE- that is more a Greek thing, and they were heavily influenced by Greek ways.

The Aetian West would be more old-school- thus they revert to the Eagle and wreath.

It might also be interesting to leave the ERE as Christian, while the West is Pagan.

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[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 05-27-2011 @ 07:07 AM).]

GeneralKickAss
Legionary
posted 27 May 2011 08:11 EDT (US)     198 / 258       
Call me conservative or whatever but I'm still convinced that the West's symbol should at least contain a hint of a common feature with the East's. How about the Roman Eagle super-imposed on the vanilla P-on-an-X?

You're not saying the West should start Pagan, are you? O.O

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Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 27 May 2011 08:44 EDT (US)     199 / 258       
Or have the Eagle be wreathed with a cross in its talons.

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GeneralKickAss
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posted 30 May 2011 23:19 EDT (US)     200 / 258       
How about this: The Roman Eagle in centre with spread wings like the vanilla SPQR's, encircled by a wreath that is sort of replaced at the bottom with a minuscule version of the P-on-an-X?

"The difficulty is not so great to die for a friend, as to find a friend worth dying for." -Homer
"You see, this is what happens when you don't follow instructions, GKA..." -Edorix
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