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Topic Subject:The Caliphate
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Drakontos
Legionary
posted 29 September 2011 20:42 EDT (US)         
The Rashidun Caliphate was formed in 632 upon the death of the Prophet Mohammed, and was replaced by the dynastic Umayyad Caliphate in 661. The lightly armed Arab armies took the exhausted Byzantine and Sassanid Persian Empires by surprise, conquering Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Africa from the Byzantines in little time, and ending the Sassanid Empire entirely.

The Caliphate proved excellent at fusing the cultural elements of the conquered peoples with her native Arab elements, if not so good at maintaining political stability. The Umayyad family were ousted in 751, and from there, the Islam world became increasingly fragmented, with multiple Caliphates being declared at once....


The exact mechanics of the Caliphate in DA:RR have yet to be finalised, so this serves as good a place as any to discuss them, in addition to the roster and like. The general consensus has been that they are to emerge at some point in Arabia, and very quickly dominate the region if not stopped quickly - much like the Mongols and Timurids of Medieval II.

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AuthorReplies:
Rinster
Legionary
posted 09 January 2012 09:22 EDT (US)     51 / 76       
I think that we want it to be almost certain that the Caliphate at least overruns the Sassanids, and most of the Levant. The emergence of the Caliphate was a big historical event, and I think that we should try to make that happen with pretty good regularity.

Just a thought.

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
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Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 10 January 2012 20:24 EDT (US)     52 / 76       
I agree, but as Terikel has said in the Map thread, we want each faction to have a good chance of becoming powerful. So, the Sassanids should have a chance of holding the line. The Arabs shouldn't have too much greater of a chance of winning than any other faction. Which is why I want to expand the map east to include all of the Sassanid territories that are currently off map.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 11 January 2012 01:45 EDT (US)     53 / 76       
While we want to give each faction a reasonable chance at life, we also want to portray the sudden emeregence of a powerful new force with reasonable historical accuracy.

The Persians reached their high time under Khosrau II, who ruled from 591-629. Thereafter they were on the downside. We want the AI Persians to go down under the Caliphate sledge after being torn by intern dissent and usurpers. Yet we want a human-run Persia to be able to survive and thrive.

Finding the balance will be difficult but not impossible.

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Rinster
Legionary
posted 11 January 2012 18:02 EDT (US)     54 / 76       
So to promote internal dissent, is there a way that we can make their cities more likely to rebel, or have lower public order in general, so that they have to spend time (whether AI or human) retaking those cities, and so will not survive long?

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
RTW
---|---|---|---
Je parle un peu de français
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 11 January 2012 22:01 EDT (US)     55 / 76       
Yes, but that means that factions in the west will never face the Sassanids. I do agree that Persia should be susceptible to a Caliphate takeover, but I also think that the balance should enable the Sassanids to be able to resist, and become a superpower.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Rinster
Legionary
posted 13 January 2012 08:33 EDT (US)     56 / 76       
Well, yes, we want to give all the factions an equal chance of survival, but we also want the caliphate to be strong, because we want that to be a significant event. Is there some way that we can make the caliphate super strong to begin with, to ensure they gain a foothold, and then maybe nerf them a bit, so that the sassanid's have a chance to fight back?

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
RTW
---|---|---|---
Je parle un peu de français
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 13 January 2012 17:57 EDT (US)     57 / 76       
I don't know. I am not what you would call a very expierianced modder.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 15 January 2012 06:29 EDT (US)     58 / 76       
When I play as the Britons, the Germans, the Scythians, the Macedonians, the Seleucids, Pontus, Armenia, or the Julii, I have never faced either Carthage or Numidia.

Only as the Scipii have I ever faced these. Even as Egypt- by the time I took care of those immediate threats, the Carthaginians were gone.

Thus it happens. Some factions will almost never face others. Thus that is no reason to improve the Persians or nerf the Caliphate.

Sorry, but such is life.

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Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 02-15-2012 @ 01:56 AM).]

Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 15 January 2012 10:52 EDT (US)     59 / 76       
True...

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 14 February 2012 15:56 EDT (US)     60 / 76       
Perhaps the Caliphate could act like a rome total war; barbarian expansion horde?
Would it be possible to have the same "mechanics"
What I mean is after they take a city or two then a percentage of their force would dissipate, reducing their ability to destroy other armies easily the more they gain.
Though even this idea may have a problem or two
Perhaps the caliphate could emerge with slightly more lower tier units that an equivalent faction AI player would typically produce?

Also (I apologise if this has been covered, I have not seen some of the other discussions) Are we going to have a possible Copt - Caliphate Conflict?
I'm Just wondering intitially (Faction Behavior) are the Copts going to Stay around the Egypt - Israel Area whilst the Caliphate advances North to Sassanid areas or will they also advance to Israel areas (or both)?

[This message has been edited by Alpha211 (edited 02-14-2012 @ 04:22 PM).]

Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 14 February 2012 20:19 EDT (US)     61 / 76       
That's probably what we are going to do. What may happen is that we make them into a sort of horde like the Slavs or the Romano-British, and have them emerge later.

Now that I'm thinking about the Romano-British, couldn't we set up the Caliphate like them, so that, for instance, when the Sassanids or ERE lose a particular city, or whatever, the Caliphate emerges and launches a vicious holy war on all of the infidels? I mean, that is basically the same concept as the Romano-Brit emergence in BI, just tweaked a bit.

I don't know if we are going to have a really big Arab-Copt war set up. That is something for the other, currently not posting much, people to answer. I have only been helping out with this mod for a short time, so I don't know enough to say for sure.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 15 February 2012 01:59 EDT (US)     62 / 76       
Since historically the Caliphate overran Egypt as well as Persia, it will probably be a good bet that they will be programmed to go after those two first.

End goals of Caliphate: Byzantium and Corduba.

At least, that is what I think for now.

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Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 15 February 2012 02:15 EDT (US)     63 / 76       
Yes since the Caliphate spread from Persia, Anatolia & North Africa. Would it be a good idea to have a splitting of the armies?
The caliphate may well have alot of strength whilst the eastern factions are fighting.
Byzantium & Corduba - I agree with that

Yh, the horde idea I agree with, I personally think it would be a bad idea to have the caliphate emerge in a city straight off (But i think the horde idea has been agreed upon)
Rinster
Legionary
posted 15 February 2012 08:24 EDT (US)     64 / 76       
Maybe we should try to ensure somehow that they spread across north africa, because they might try to take the overland route going to Corduba.


Or is that too controlling?

I really have nothing to say at this point.
Other than this.
Total War Games Played:
RTW
---|---|---|---
Je parle un peu de français
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 15 February 2012 08:55 EDT (US)     65 / 76       
The Turks (Muslims, by the way) went the overland route. It took a lot of Viennese gunpowder to stop their drive. The Caliphate should try to get there going over North Africa, but if they decide every once in a while to try going north, who cares?

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Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 15 February 2012 22:48 EDT (US)     66 / 76       
Yeah. It just makes the game more interesting.

What I meant by having the Caliphate spawn Romano-British style is that we could have them pop up whenever a certain condition is met. For the RB, that condition was that the WRE was driven out of England. For the Caliphate, it could be any number of things.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Alpha211
Legionary
posted 27 February 2012 11:50 EDT (US)     67 / 76       
Agrippa that would be a good idea

Have we got a Historical Emergence vs Conditional Emergence going on here?

Are we ok on units?
I was wondering if M2TW could provide some ideas, not use units from the game, just have an idea for a caliphate roster, good idea or not?
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 27 February 2012 14:18 EDT (US)     68 / 76       
Historical emergence doesn't even come into the equation. Otherwise it would be emerging more than 200 turns into the game.

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Alpha211
Legionary
posted 28 February 2012 11:48 EDT (US)     69 / 76       
Ok, fair enough

Discussion on Spawn conditions?
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 28 February 2012 14:35 EDT (US)     70 / 76       
How exactly does spawning work?

Is it a random timer (like 10+(5d12) to generate a spawn between turn 15 to 70)?

Or is it conditional, like if two/three provinces change hands between Persia and the ERE?

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Agrippa 271
Legionary
posted 28 February 2012 17:29 EDT (US)     71 / 76       
Yes, i think an understanding of spawning will be needed to make this work. If necessary, we could determine our options, then leave how the Caliphate will emerge to tinkering once we (finally) start modding this.

Death is a (vastly) preferable alternative to communism.
"Idiocy knows no national or cultural borders. Stupidity can strike anyone, anywhere." -- Terikel
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 28 February 2012 18:23 EDT (US)     72 / 76       
Options:
-We use scripts (if we can) which involves making the player click on a show_me_how thing in the corner, and THEN they emerge
-They emerge like the Slavs (a set date, pretty sure we can't control the army composition)
-Or the RBs (when Empire_West doesn't control the Britannia_Superior or Inferior, or in this case, we'd make Arabia)
-Or the WRER/ERER (rebellions, whenever)
-Or the Ostros (rebellion, once)

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Alpha211
Legionary
posted 04 March 2012 02:23 EDT (US)     73 / 76       
I think a romano british or ostrogoth emergence would be the ones I go for.

Personally I dont think a historical emergence is a good idea (as drankontos told me earlier), too much gameplay would feature before them.

A romano-british type is good, whenever the AI loses it or the player controls it. though can we make sure the CPU will lose or attack the set settlement. I played a few barbarian invasion campaigns where i didn't even see the romano-british emerge.

Ostrogoths type would mean a few armies set there for the rest of the game, instead of ERER etc. i wouldn't want the calpihate just "popping up" somewhere as an army, getting into action and being defeated. This would result in a cycle wouldnt it? (A constant re emergence of caliphate rebels who could not go for their set campaign win settlements?)
Terikel Grayhair
Imperator
(id: Terikel706)
posted 04 March 2012 05:36 EDT (US)     74 / 76       
Considering the fact that we intend the Caliphate to start off very strong and have its armies diluted through expansion, I think havign them emerge once is the best bet.

After all, had the Caliphate lost anywhere along the line in the true history of the period, they would most likely not have spread as far and wide as they did.

|||||||||||||||| A transplanted Viking, born a millennium too late. |||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Too many Awards to list in Signature, sorry lords...|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||| Listed on my page for your convenience and envy.|||||||||||||||||
Somewhere over the EXCO Rainbow
Master Skald, Order of the Silver Quill, Guild of the Skalds
Champion of the Sepia Joust- Joust I, II, IV, VI, VII, VIII
Kilos of Thermon
Legionary
posted 11 March 2012 22:44 EDT (US)     75 / 76       
I agree with Terikel here. I believe that the Caliphate will be more successful than say the other hordes from BI because it doesn't have other hordes to pointlessly fight and it doesn't have any villages to pointlessly sack.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
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Cattle die, kinsmen die, the self must also die. I know one thing that never dies: the fate of the honored dead. Hávamál, Gestaþáttr, #77.
Drakontos
Legionary
posted 12 March 2012 16:36 EDT (US)     76 / 76       
I'm not entirely sure how the Ostrogothic emergence works.

I'm pretty sure they only emerge once - but if they are entirely destroyed, they may well emerge once more. Plus you can't directly choose where they do it. Indirectly, sure.

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